Flight Question What am I doing wrong?

r22s7

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Hi all,

Apologies if this is a very basic question, as I only started using Orbiter yesterday. I cannot move through space at all; when i increase time compression, I will just oscillate in the same spot. Also, ALT HOLD does not seem to be working. If I click it, I will just keep climbing until I am at an altitude of about 90 000 km. I also can't seem to stop the rotation. All these problems happen no matter what craft I am in.

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)
 
Obligatory mention here for "Go Play In Space" (google it or search it in this forum). I bet most of us started with this manual, and it's an excellent way to learn.

I would suggest you do a couple of things that may sound unnatural to start with:

1. Start a "Docked at ISS" scenario (e.g. in the Delta Glider), them press Ctrl-D to undock, and voila, you are in orbit. Have a play with rotate and translate modes, Keypad-5 to stop the rotation, and look at the different autopilot orientations (prograde, retrograde, etc).

2. Load up a Brighton Beach scenario (a moon base). Try the hover thrusters (Keypad 0 and .) to lift off from the Moon, and try very gentle thrust to get up into a lunar orbit.

Once you get the hang of things, you'll have a blast with this sim.

If you continue to have problems, then we (the forum!) can talk you through capturing a snapshot of your simulation, and then we can try to talk you through what's happening.
 
Hi there, welcome to Orbiter!
First rule of Orbiter: be careful with time acceleration. Usually, 10x or 100x are safe everywhere, but higher than that when in orbit might make your ship go to the other side of the universe :lol:. If you're travelling between planets or so, 1000x and higher work well (and are needed). Also don't get too used to it, as you'll start wanting to use it in real life :shifty:.
From your description, I'd guess you just accelerated time too much. Once you do it, there's not much to do except start over. Might be a good idea to occasionally save the simulation (Ctrl+S), so that you can start from there when something goes wrong.
On the ALT HOLD issue, I'm afraid I can't help, and to stop unwanted rotations the magic key is "numpad 5".
It's very tempting to skip the manual and go straight to the Moon or Jupiter, but it's really useful to read it as you start doing things.
Good flights! :thumbup:
 
I thought I had worked it out, I went through the tutorial between Earth and the moon, and wrote down every step, so that I could replicate it, but then when I get to the Sync Orbit MFD, it says invalid target, unless I select the moon.

I don't know where I am going wrong.

See below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3kcHWl2b93nYXdKMzFEbi1GRFE/view?usp=sharing

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------

I am not having any problem with orbit, the problem is when I leave the earth into space, I can't move forward. I don't understand why.
 
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I am not having any problem with orbit, the problem is when I leave the earth into space, I can't move forward. I don't understand why.

What do you mean with "moving forward", since when you are in orbit, you are moving per definition.

HOLD ALT only holds a minimum altitude with hover engines, it does not reduce climb rate.
 
I thought I had worked it out, I went through the tutorial between Earth and the moon, and wrote down every step, so that I could replicate it, but then when I get to the Sync Orbit MFD, it says invalid target, unless I select the moon.

I don't know where I am going wrong.

See below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3kcHWl2b93nYXdKMzFEbi1GRFE/view?usp=sharing

[...] I am not having any problem with orbit, the problem is when I leave the earth into space, I can't move forward. I don't understand why.


OK - a few things here. Sync Orbit looks at the dominant gravitational influence to determine what to sync with. In your screenshot, you are on Earth at an altitude of under 2km, and a speed of under 600 m/s. The "G 1.00" on the bottom of your Orbit MFD confirms that for all practical calculations, 100% of your gravity force is coming from Earth right now. So Sync Orbit gives you a choice of only one celestial body to sync orbit with.

Ready for a flight school lesson? Follow along *exactly* with what I describe below:
Code:
1. From a new Orbiter session, select Delta-glider and Docked at ISS as your scenario.
   Launch Orbiter.

2. You are initially in Virtual Cockpit mode (nice for visuals, but not how we
    normally control things).

3. Press F8, and you will see two large MFD screens. This is a "generic glass
    cockpit" mode, and ideal for what we want to do for this flight.

4. On the left MFD, hit SEL and bring up Sync Orbit.

5. Hit TGT, and look at the target choices. You will see ISS and Mir under
    spacecraft, and Moon under celestial bodies. Select Moon for now. 

6. Press Ctrl-D, and you will undock and push back from the ISS.

7. Press H, and you will see the heads up display (HUD) switch from docking mode
   to orbit mode. Note your orbital velocity on the top of your screen is 7.698 km/s.
   (This is how fast you need to be going horizontally to sustain an orbit at this
   altitude.)

8. Press "T" to go to 10x speed. (Use "T" and "R" to change time acceleration).

9. Press PRO GRD to select the Prograde Autopilot, and watch the ship align to the
   velocity vector (the circle with the plus in it), with Earth off the left side and we
   are pointing at right angles to the Earth.

10. Press Ctrl-Keypad+ to engage and lock the main engines.

11. Watch your Orbit MFD: the shape of your orbit will become oval, and watch
     the Ecc readout, which is your Eccentricity. (If Ecc is close to 0.000, you are
     in a circular orbit. As Ecc rises between 0.000 and 1.000, you are in an
     increasingly oval orbit. Once you break through Ecc = 1.000, you have
     overcome Earth's gravity, and you are in a hyperbolic orbit, headed for
     deep space.)

12. As Ecc gets close to 1.000, try pressing R a few times to go to lower
     time-warps, and eventually to 0.1x time, right at the Ecc=1.000 point. As
     you get to Ecc = 1.000 (or just past - it doesn't matter), press Ctrl-P to
     pause.

13. Let's look around at this point. You have just broken out of orbit. Your speed is
     close to 9.154 km/s. And the Orbit MFD display just changed to show a different
     view now, for the hyperbolic orbit. 

14. Press Ctrl-P again to unfreeze, and continue on full throttle, watching the Ecc.

15. As you get close to Ecc = 1.200, reduce time-warp again, and see if you can
     freeze the moment you go through Ecc = 1.200. (Nothing special about this
     point, but I'm encouraging you to have good control of your time acceleration.)
     You'll see a speed of around 9.584 km/s. Press Keypad-* to cut engines.

16. Press PRO GRD again to disengage the autopilot, and time-warp up to 1000x. 

17. Now watch the gravity influence meter on your Orbit MFD (the G 1.00 will
     start to become G 0.99 and so on downwards). This indicates that the
     gravitational influence of the Earth is starting to lessen with respect to the
     forces on your spacecraft, and the influence of something else (the Sun in
     this case) is starting to become noticeable.

18. As you get to G 0.50, I want you to come down to 10x to watch carefully
     what happens. There will be a few seconds where G 0.50 is green, and then
     it switches to a red G 0.50. This is the instant when the dominant
     gravitational influence switched to the Sun. Although at this point the Earth
     is still very significant (i.e. nearly half the influence is still the Earth's),
     from this point on, the Sun is now in charge.

19. Press "AR" on Orbit MFD, to auto-reference the dominant gravitational body.
     You will see the "Orbit: Earth" is now replaced with "Orbit: Sun", and the
     graphics change to put the Sun at the center of the Orbit MFD.

20. Now go back to the Sync Orbit MFD, and try TGT again. You will now see
     that there are no spacecraft (in this sim run) in orbit around the Sun, and
     the celestial bodies are now the planets (and dwarfs!!). Only now can you
    select Saturn, as you originally intended.

21. Exit the simulation at this point.

This hopefully gives you a quick feel for what is going on. Of course, we have done no trajectory planning at all, and if you were to try to get to Saturn from here, it would almost certainly be horrible. But that's for a much more advanced session, where you use tools like IMFD or TransX, with LaunchMFD, to get into a parking orbit around the Earth, and then do the eject burn to head precisely to a distant rendezvous point with a planet. By the way - if you wanted to get to a moon of a planet - e.g. Jupiter's Europa moon - then you would need to get to Jupiter's gravitational influence first, and then course-correct to have an encounter with Europa.


_______

A final comment on you not being able to maneuver in space. From looking at your screenshot, I suspect you are not thinking about going horizontally fast enough before thinking vertically. The basic drill to get from Earth (e.g. Cape Canaveral) in a simple spacecraft like the Delta Glider to Earth's orbit is to fly East, at around 10 degrees pitch, and get your orbital velocity up to 7.500 km/s (plus or minus). Watch your Alt and ApA (apoapsis ... i.e. the highest point of your trajectory). As you get to orbital velocity, the ApA starts to tick up rapidly (10's of km per second). See if you can cut your engines at between 200 km and 400 km for ApA. At this point, your periapsis (PeA - lowest point) will still be negative, meaning you are a ballistic missile and you will hit the Earth again. This is normal! Now watch the ApT (apoapsis time) count down to zero. At close to zero (say 10 secs), you want to do a prograde burn to raise your PeA up to the same altitude as your ApA. As you do this, your Ecc will head down to close to 0.000. This step is called circularizing your orbit.

Over to you, commander!
 
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Well, after trying just about everything, I am almost at my wits end with this. I have tried following instructions for the MFDs, only to oscillate on the spot, or for the instructions to say: "click this (non-existant) button". I don't know what else to do, except to keep opening Orbiter, and hoping for the aha moment when everything suddenly falls into place. The problem of being unable to manuver is obvious, because when I speed up, I am just oscillating, but after slowing down, the nearby stars and planets are the exact same as when I first sped time up.
Quite simply, I can move out of the Earth's (or any other planet/moon for that matter) orbit, but then I am not moving any closer to anything. I can speed time up to pass several months quickly, but when I slow back down, I will be exactly where I started.

This is also my first experience with space flight, so a lot of the technical terms are going straight over my head. I can't be the only person who has ever come to Orbiter with no background knowledge whatsoever, is there somewhere that explains in simple English, what to do?

I am almost ready to give up :( but I don't want to.
 
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Don't give up.

We are all pretty much willing to help you (I went so far as to talk a guy from Ohio for several hours over the phone to help him get started). But the questions have to be in a form that we can understand what you are asking. For example, ever hear of someone just getting started with computers describe a problem because they clicked this "thing" on the screen? (what thing, there's nothing in Windows or Linux called "thing").

Same thing here with your oscillating. I'm an electronics technican at a nuclear power plant. I do know what oscillations are, but I don't know the context of what you are describing.

The link I sent you for the tutorials will give you the tools you need to get started. "Go Play In Space" has a wealth of knowledge for the beginner. Orbiter is not a "game" in the classic sense. And it's extremely rare that a person can just figure it out without a lot of headache and frustration.

There are two scenarios that come to mind at the moment. One has a futuristic cargo hauler (Shuttle-A) on approach to the ISS. The other is SMACK! featuring the DeltaGlider.

Open either one of these and just experiment with the craft. See how they rotate, pitch and translate relative to a nearby object (either the ISS or the other DG depending on which scenario you choose). Notice how translation thrusters differ from your main engines. And watch how your numbers on Orbit MFD change over time. Also Go Play In Space will help you with the terms we use on a regular basis (ApA, PeA, Rinc, DV).

Also, are you by any chance using a laptop? If so you may need to set some keybindings, or get a cheap external keyboard to make things much easier.
 
r22s7, I am in Sydney so you are very close location wise.

A newbie to Orbiter will give up after awhile because there is no understanding in space flight dynamics, even the most simple of tasks such as getting into orbit will be difficult.

So to help you on your journey, start with the basics and just watch David Courtney's 101 Orbiter videos.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPu_SHPaJzs4e1NfhY8jxPGgk5S4duEql

It is a lot of learning but you will be glad you did.

Orbiter is more difficult than Kerbal Space Program and for a newbie I do think Kerbal is better for learning the basics of space flight so in that regard I would recommend if you choose the KSP path, watch Scott Manely's KSP videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/szyzyg

Reason I would recommend KSP to a beginner is it allows you to make your orbits and transfers with the mouse and you can see your orbits on screen. After you land eeloo or other weird named objects in KSP, then you will be ready and have a lot of transferable skills to tackle Orbiter.

It is a big learning process, give yourself about 10 hours a week in learning to space travel with these programs, and in afew months you will be just alright at them. It is just crazy someone starting one of these programs and expecting to acheive anything else than failure and disapointment unless a lot of preparatory work has gone in before hand.

So enjoy the learning process, it is all quite interesting.
 
Well, after 3 days of trial and error, I think I am finally making progress. I can see the universe moving past the spacecraft. I will keep trying and see where I end up Thank you for all your help, it is greatly appreciated. :)
 
Don't expect it to move past quickly. After all;
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. -Douglas Adams

If you are all alone with your spacecraft it seems that nothing happens quickly. However if you are in a loaded down cargo ship with sluggish response times closing in dock with a space station; things can happen faster than you are ready for.
 
I am almost ready to give up :( but I don't want to.

Did you do the flight I described in #7? Did it work, or did you get this oscillation problem there too? If so, can you describe exactly what step, and did you do everything before exactly as I suggested?

When you are in this oscillation, can you take say 3 screenshots in rapid succession (e.g. 1 second intervals) and post them. I'm interested in the velocity, altitude, acceleration factor and the simulation time, to see if there's anything unusual.

The only thing I can think is that you have an autopilot on (e.g. Prograde), and you are trying to do 1000x or 10000x acceleration. Whilst it would look like you are going nowhere, and you would get that oscillation, actually you are moving quickly.


Regarding the words, or terms going over your head - we've all been there. Make a list of terms or concepts you don't understand, and start a new thread, and I'm sure you will get simple descriptions and answers to help you out.

Keep going: it's worth it.
 
Space flight is easier than people give it credit for. The trick is that when people think "in orbit" they immediately think "in space". This is because on any world with even a wisp of an atmosphere, you have to get into space before you can go fast enough to achieve orbit, or you will burn up--but they are not one and the same.

The first step is to get high (as in high up in the atmosphere:lol:), the second step is to get fast. You go really high so that you can go really fast without burning up.

Once you are in orbit (high enough and fast enough) you start learning about how your craft maneuvers. The burns you make will not appear to have any effect at first, because the universe is so big. But crank up the time compression, and you will quickly notice the long term consequences of using your engines.

OR--undock from the ISS and hit full retro for several seconds--you will see some action then:)

A lot of things in space are counter-intuitive--this is what fascinates me about space flight. I want to go to Jupiter, so why am I pointing at Orion and burning when Jupiter is on the other side of the sky? And yet when you follow these seemingly nonsensical directions, and get there, you will feel so amazingly smart:)

And I will add my full ringing endorsement to David Courtney's videos as well. I had been in Orbiter for a while and understood the basics, but he still taught me things I didn't know;)
 
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