News Terror attacks in Mumbai!

Muslim organisations deny burial to slain terrorists

A very wise response, as it undermines a lot of the martyr fantasies of such people. I don't know which burial would be the minimum, a human could expect in the Muslim faith (as non-Muslim), I am sure that somebody ever made rules for this. In the worst case, they could expect getting cremated, which sounds to me like the second worst fate for Muslim theology, as these have, as far as I know similar strict burial rites as Jews.
 
The world is very interesting. I recall that it was said that terrorists were trained in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (US allies) and still Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded...

Could it be that the whole war on terror is just a theatrical political game to sell weapons to all countries of the world?


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Atheist does still not mean, that you are not free of dogma and faith. And your antiislamism shows well, how easily you are willed to believe what false prophets of occidential-christian greathood ("Look how great we are compared to those primitives") indoctrinate into you.

That reminds me a time when I worked with a guy from an evangelic church. He ended up getting me into trouble becuase I denounced a guy for something that was morally questionable, and the church guy backstabbed me because the guy I was denouncing was going to sponsor him.

Amazingly an atheist from this forum supported me, and showed better principles than the so called christian guy.

If I had the very same simplistic view of religions, I would be proAtheist and antiChristian. But I understand that an son of his mother can be found anywhere and religions use to be more labels than actual beliefs.

People attach to an organization, but in the end every person has his own agenda. And some people agenda ranges from betrayal to terror, and some others are there to do good to humanity, no matter which label you are talking.

I do not trust in religious labels. Christianity is not guarantee of morality. During middle age christians spread terror in the middle east.
 
Could it be that the whole war on terror is just a theatrical political game to sell weapons to all countries of the world?

The reality is no conspiracy theory. Occams Razor always applies and you would be served better by remembering it.

You can be sure that the defense industry in all countries tries to create demand for their products, but even these can't fake all terrorist attacks in the world. It is also not always good - war against terror requires different weapons as war against tyrants. The 9/11 attacks had in fact, canceled many defense projects, as the demands changed.
 
Could it be that the whole war on terror is just a theatrical political game to sell weapons to all countries of the world?

Sadly not. And I do believe that the threat is even worse than politicians and secret services publicly admit. And by the way, I think this is also the case for the financial crises. Politicians even downplay those things to create the misbelief that they have everything under control, which is obviously not the case.
 
Well, I think the attackers picked the wrong people when they attacked India.
India has a very ancient culture, which has developed lots of wisdom.
India achieved its independency with the most powerful non conventional way of warfare: Non violence.

The implications for the world could have a worldwide scope if they use their advanced culture and wisdom to influence the planet with their unconventional warfare, after these attacks.

Our western cultures are young and immature when compared to their culture.
India people is very determined and have a very strong will.

I seriously doubt that people from India will play the theatrical geopolitical games of weapon manufacturers who make profit with other people's suffering and anger.
 
Our western cultures are young and immature when compared to their culture.
India people is very determined and have a very strong will.

I seriously doubt that people from India will play the theatrical geopolitical games of weapon manufacturers who make profit with other people's suffering and anger.

Pablo, I despair of ever having any meaningful impact on your view of the world, but I can’t help but comment on this post. There are two ideas expressed here, both of interest to people who wonder how such notions come to be vital and influential things in people’s minds. They are known by very specific names to those who study these things: “The Merchants of Death” and “The Romance of the East.”

One of the most important things that is not well understood by people who aren’t serious students of history is that the analysis of history and human society themselves have changed a great deal in the last fifty years or so. What is considered today to be rigorous analysis of these subjects is really a fairly new phenomenon.

Two of the things that mark modern social studies – and differentiate it from earlier work – are the realizations that 1) cause and effect in social systems is extremely complex and; that 2) it is very important to be as clear as possible about the theoretical assumptions concerning society being made by those who do the studying and writing. In earlier times, even the most serious students of history and society tended to apply much simpler notions of cause and effect to the facts they considered, and they were also much less conscious of and less clear about disclosing the ideological foundations of their analyses.

These factors are evident in what you’ve written, Pablo. The first thing we see is one of your fixed ideas: That large scale human conflict is largely the result of the weapons industry. This is a very specific idea, and actually has a very specific origin in the history of ideas. Europeans were shocked by the large-scale violence of World War I. The devastation wrought by the war and the numbers of casualties were unprecedented in the experience of the generation that lived through “the Great War” (as it was called until the 1940s, since people didn’t know it was the first in a two-game series).

At the time, Marxist notions of the primacy of economic factors in human social systems, and the evil wrought by the private ownership of capital, were extremely influential among “advanced” intellectuals in Europe and America. It is difficult today for people who don’t immerse themselves in the thought of the time to realize just how widespread and influential Marxist theoretical concepts about society and history were. The gulags were unknown to all but those who were forced into them and those who created them. “Progressive” thinkers in the West almost all tended toward Marxist ideas. Mainstream “news” publications in the West were full laudatory descriptions of life in the socialist paradise of Bolshevik Russia.

In this intellectual climate, an explanation of how the nations of Europe had descended into the blood of the long butchery of the Great War developed and was widely accepted. It was known as the idea of “the Merchants of Death.” It had been German arms makers like Krupp and the owners of British shipyards that profited from the building of battleships who pushed the western world into war. It had all been about the evil of capitalism, you see. Completely consistent with the basic Marxist notion that class control over the means of production was the primary (really the only) motor of history, this idea grew into the main explanation for the madness of the war accepted both among “intellectuals” and, as expressed in less “high brow” media like the popular press and movies, by many average people. The theory grew to connect with and buttress Lenin’s theory of imperialism (his only really original contribution to Marxist doctrine) and explained for the people of Europe and America how great masses of people had been manipulated by shadowy, powerful, evil capitalists into fighting and dying.

Of course, the truth is much, much more complex than this. Factors like the ethnic dynamic of pan-Slavism, the strange and stunted personality of the Kaiser, the narrow culture of militaristic pride among the Prussian nobility, the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire and, increasingly the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the lack of imagination among the military theorists of the European armies, all played key roles in the insanity that began to unfold in August, 1914. The “Merchants of Death” theory ignored all this, and presented a tidy, small group of clearly-defined villains. Unfortunately, it misses most of the truth by being such a satisfyingly simple explanation.

As for your comment about India embodying some kind of wonderful alternative cultural approach to the warmongering West, I’m afraid this idea can’t begin to stand up to reality. “The Romance of the East” has deeper roots in Western thinking, dating back in some ways to the Roman love-hate relationship with the Hellenized “Asiatics” who peopled the eastern part of its empire. More importantly for our time, from the Enlightenment on, an idealized (and very unrealistic) “East” has been the screen onto which western thinkers about society have conveniently projected as many of the good things they don’t see in their own societies as possible. The late 19th century English “theosophist” movement specifically placed a whole host of positive “spiritual” values into a poorly-understood caricature of India. This caricature ignores the fact that India has been the battleground of warring armies since the events described in the Vedas, through the time of the bloody Muslim conquests, and all the way up to the modern era. The deeply romanticized picture of Mohandis Ghandi one sees in the Attenborough film is a continuing example of the ongoing “Romance of the East.” The reality is that the Ganges and the Brahmaputra rivers have run with blood as much as any others in the world.
 
Greg, you may excuse me but I think you are talking a language from a previous era I do not understand. And from a previous era I mean cold war. Cold era is a historical tale which took place when I was a kid and before I was born. I belong to Y Generation, the generation of videogames.

If we talk about market and trade, by the year 1500BC arians (the name Indians use to call themselves) dominated the dasa, the dark skinned, who are today called the dravidans. That society had 4 social strata: brahman (priests), warriors (kshatriya), vaishya (farmers/traders), shudra (who were enslaved dasa at the beginning).

Since the vaishya (who traded since then) existed before capitalism, before Adam Smith, explaining the world from a capitalist view, as ancient capitalism, is as disfunctional as explaining Bolivarian ideas from a socialist point of view, since Bolivar died when Marx was only a teen. capitalism and Socialism are ideologies with a very hazy and ambiguous boundary, which is specially visible for us who were born in post-cold war era.

To me, left and right are directions so I can fit the right shoe and the right foot. For me, three left turns can make a right.

What is certain is that left and right ideologies were very strong ideologically, just like a religion, a political religion of a past era.

As for my comment about India embodying some kind of wonderful alternative cultural approach to the warmongering West, this approach of non-violence was implemented by Mohandas Gandhi and succeeded far more than previous insurrections in India.

Non-violence is not the tools of weak people, but it takes strong determination.
After WWI Giulio Douhet believed that if you killed enemy civilians that would lower their morale and they would surrender. His ideas made post WWI strategies to daydream, and WWII posed the right ocassion to test his ideas, for it was the first time when douhetian ideas could be put to the test.

The attacks on London, Dresden, Hamburg and 65 on Japan proved that douhetian strategy as wrong, for killing civilians only increased the determination of population to defeat an enemy that committed acts of genocide against civilians. Of course, it had to be hidden in history books for political convenience.

But as douhetian ideas proved wrong, it became evident that killing civilians creates an impulse towards violence that could be exploited by weapon industry to increase their sales.

So military strategy lesson and current rules of economy create an incentive to exploit terror as a way for companies to make profit.

But if we take the strong determination of people in India, and if the wake up to the lessons of history, they might discover that non-violence is stronger and more effective force than anger and hate.

Our western culture is young and immature. So it is likely that most of us do not fully understand the extent of the cultural richness and spiritual development of those cultures.
 
Greg, you may excuse me but I think you are talking a language from a previous era I do not understand. And from a previous era I mean cold war. Cold era is a historical tale which took place when I was a kid and before I was born. I belong to Y Generation, the generation of videogames.

All I can say to this is that you are completely fooling yourself into thinking you're thinking something really new. Those who are ignorant of history ...
 
Greg, you may excuse me but I think you are talking a language from a previous era I do not understand.

I think you are talking about another planet. Are you happy now?
 
The history of India has been a history of wars, just like European history, as you say Greg. But they also took a very important step when they got their independence. It was a collective movement that put a new strategy to the test and it worked.

But it is a strategy that requires the culture of India, for if Gandhi had used non-violence in South Africa, he might have failed, because of cultural factors.

Terror is an invitation to fight, to hate, to buy weapons. So it seems that we might see if people in India are worthy of the lessons of their own history, or if by the contrary they will be as uncivilized as we westerners have been. India has now a chance to prove its worthiness to the world, not as a copy of our immature cultures, but as the result of a process of cultural evolution.

Will India accept the invitation to hate, and weapon spending?

Seeing history of India as the history of wild and barbarian people is a remnant of 19th century view of non European cultures. Nature was opposed to civilization. So non having electricity or highways was seen as a sign of a primitive culture. When we judge others and we set ourselves as the standard, other cultures will be inferior.

That is the idea of bringing our western culture to Iraq, and that could also be an attempt to bring our western culture to assimilate India too.

I see no difference between colonialist slavery in America (the continent, not USA) and the slavery of dasa, or the economic slavery that current economy imposes to the poor. To me, the world has depleted something and the old rules are not working.

Our cultures are different and no one is superior to another. And based on that difference I would expect an unexpected reaction from India after these attacks, not the traditional arab or western reaction. If they accept the invitation we would have been westernized or arabized...
 
Non-violence is not the tools of weak people, but it takes strong determination.
...

But if we take the strong determination of people in India, and if the wake up to the lessons of history, they might discover that non-violence is stronger and more effective force than anger and hate.

Our western culture is young and immature. So it is likely that most of us do not fully understand the extent of the cultural richness and spiritual development of those cultures.

I would like very much to be educated on how the people (or politicians) in India employ this doctrine in practice. Both in Gandhi's time and today. Maybe there's something I don't know about and I'm influenced by false impressions, but if you ask me... I'd cautiously respond that I don't believe that people in India are special.
 
It was a collective movement that put a new strategy to the test and it worked.

It worked? You can see Gandhi's legacy in Mumbai and in the politics of India today.

Gandhi supported non-violence, and won independence by it, but he died by violence - just as much as his underestimation of the inner conflicts of India triggered the violence which lives on until today.
 
The history of India has been a history of wars, just like European history, as you say Greg. But they also took a very important step when they got their independence. It was a collective movement that put a new strategy to the test and it worked.

But it is a strategy that requires the culture of India, for if Gandhi had used non-violence in South Africa, he might have failed, because of cultural factors.

Terror is an invitation to fight, to hate, to buy weapons. So it seems that we might see if people in India are worthy of the lessons of their own history, or if by the contrary they will be as uncivilized as we westerners have been. India has now a chance to prove its worthiness to the world, not as a copy of our immature cultures, but as the result of a process of cultural evolution.

Will India accept the invitation to hate, and weapon spending?

Seeing history of India as the history of wild and barbarian people is a remnant of 19th century view of non European cultures. Nature was opposed to civilization. So non having electricity or highways was seen as a sign of a primitive culture. When we judge others and we set ourselves as the standard, other cultures will be inferior.

That is the idea of bringing our western culture to Iraq, and that could also be an attempt to bring our western culture to assimilate India too.

I see no difference between colonialist slavery in America (the continent, not USA) and the slavery of dasa, or the economic slavery that current economy imposes to the poor. To me, the world has depleted something and the old rules are not working.

Our cultures are different and no one is superior to another. And based on that difference I would expect an unexpected reaction from India after these attacks, not the traditional arab or western reaction. If they accept the invitation we would have been westernized or arabized...

At this point I'm going to go subject myself to capitalist exploitation, i.e. go to see if I can do some paying work.

Let me just suggest a thought to you. I'd ask that you really, really, really think about it before you reply. Ghandi was a lawyer, an English lawyer. His strategy was based on the power of using English values about the rule of law against the English as a colonial power. It worked. Would it have worked against a force that did not observe the rule of law as a fundamental value?
 
Ar81, you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, Gandhi was the exception rather than the rule: he was educated in England, knew a good lot about the West (more of that later), he didn't approve much of the caste system that has dominated your enlightened India for centuries - and still does.
Second, Gandhi knew his enemy - the British Empire - from the inside and had the privilege of living at a time the Brits couldn't simply arrest, hang him and throw him in an unmarked grave like they would have done one century before, especially not after the whole world knew about him. Indians had tried to rebel for a darn lot of time with no results at all, Gandhi's way ensured that in the world public opinion's eye (because thanks to technlogical advances what happened in India would NOT stay in India) if the Brits offed him, they would become teh villains. In 1920 that wouldn't have been good. In 1930 that would have been bad, in 1940 it would have been VERY bad. Try that stunt in 1820, see how far it takes you.
And then what happens? Gandhi gets killed by a Hindu radical. Not by a Western weapon seller, but an Indian citizen who didn't like the way India had become weakened in regards to Pakistan. Yes, for all his influence not even Gandhi could avoid the split.

As for cultures, it happens that things change. We do not look at Mesopotamia for enlightenment, we do not look a Greece for philosophy, we do not expect the Romans to draft our laws. That's the nature of history. And anyway, India has behaved towards Pakistan in a very "Western" way in his recent history. Check out the Kashmir conflict and you'll see.
 
What makes them special?
USA had a war for Independence.
India had non-violence and achieved independence.
That not only reflects an extraordinary leadership, but also an extraordinary background culture that could make it possible.

In our western culture we have a tendency to believe that the group we belong to is better than others. I see it as an attempt to gain selfesteem through membership. Then we attain group identity that completes our personal identity.

I recall when I came here. What I perceived first was something like "How could a third world citizen make a tutorial about any Orbiter topic? How does he dare to do that? He should be washing his clothes in the river, and screaming like Tarzan".

In our country we also have that contradiction. Alianza Francesa, a french organization made a compilation of Costa Rica poetry that included an indigenous poet. British embassy invited a Bribri to an event and he told us how Costa Rican teachers punished them when they talked Bribri at school when they were kids.

In Costa Rica there is a feeling of superiority (and some racism) when compared to Nicaraguan immigrants, and towards indigenous people from Talamanca mountains. Talamanca people are seen as a curiosity, their superstitious beliefs, their primitive conditions, almost like exotic animals. Some years ago, those people do not even had IDs that proved their existence, their citizenship.

In Costa Rica people feel white, or whiter and more civilized than other people in Central America.

I could say that if I see the tan skin of such indigenous people I could feel there is nothing special. But then I would be ignoring their cultural richness. They are in many aspects smarter than us, and that where the popular expression says "tener malicia indígena" (to be sharp like an indigenous).

The funny thing is that in unversities, excommie activists use spanish colonialism and slavery as excuse to show themselves superior, but they do nothing for those people in Talamanca. It is our big social lie, the illusion of false superiority, a social attempt to keep our selfesteem up, and keep us controlled within the boundaries of nationalism and mass behavior.

India had a culture that made Gandhi to succeed. But as any other human group they also have struggles. Do we underestimate them, as inferiors? Or do we asume a cosmopolitan view and let ourselves to be surprised by them? I would feel ignorant if I underestimated them. This is why I do not regard India with my western standards. I do not see them as inferior warmongers.
 
Well, I think the attackers picked the wrong people when they attacked India.

They picked humans, which already is wrong on the whole.

Also, India is not an island of the blest. Not even Tibet is one (it never was).
 
What makes them special?
USA had a war for Independence.
India had non-violence and achieved independence.
That not only reflects an extraordinary leadership, but also an extraordinary background culture that could make it possible.

LOL, you should NEVER judge a book by the cover. You knowledge of history does not go any deeper.

And don't mention Costa Rica to often. People might decide that a correction of some borders in Central America is needed. :P
 
What makes them special?
USA had a war for Independence.
India had non-violence and achieved independence.
That not only reflects an extraordinary leadership, but also an extraordinary background culture that could make it possible.

I am sorry, but if British India happened to had a significant Communist movement in 1947, it would HAVE TO fight a WAR for its independence. THAT would make it one of the World's focal point at that time, but in reality India was SAVED from becoming such by the external circumstances. You can't call Gandhi the man who won India's independence like you wouldn't claim that a surf-rider is the one who causes surf. Many apologies to our Indian members (and Pakistani, if there are any).

I'm leaving your implications about third world and skin color without any comment. They are wrong. By saying India people aren't special I meant they are like the rest of humanity - nothing else.
 
My view relies on the evidence of what their culture is capable of.
Culture is what makes chinese workers not to meet german manufacturer standards.
Culture is what made Just In Time to work in Japan and not in US.
Culture made India to be a country which did not get independence after a war of independence.

Of course, the feeling of superiority makes people to say "they can't be better than us".

This is why in most of US programs US claims to have won space race, while indeed russians had bigger rockets, put the first probe on the moon, the first space station, the first man in orbit, the first man made object in space...

When I was a kid I used to believe that Russians were very primitive and that russians had only potatoes, Kremlin, thundra, KGB and fat women, and I used to believe US was police of the world and enforcer of human rights. Also I used to believe all germans were nazis, that spanish enslaved us and sank us into third world... Blame US media. My family used to be right wingers.

Then I met leftist activists at univeristy who claimed that US imperialism was to be blamed for us being third world. Later I found evidence that they were wrong, that third world was the fault of our own politicians.

So I started not to trust ideologies, which proved to be biased form of perception, political religions. Left and right are now directions for fitting shoes, or to make a car to turn. I am a political atheist.

Then I started to dig and meet people from those places and changed my mind, for I appreciated the richness of their culture and how wrong it was to underestimate people.
 
My view relies on the evidence of what their culture is capable of.
Culture is what makes chinese workers not to meet german manufacturer standards.
Culture is what made Just In Time to work in Japan and not in US.
Culture made India to be a country which did not get independence after a war of independence.

Of course, the feeling of superiority makes people to say "they can't be better than us".

This is why in most of US programs US claims to have won space race, while indeed russians had bigger rockets, put the first probe on the moon, the first space station, the first man in orbit, the first man made object in space...

But the USA did win the space race. And India has got their independence not because of their culture. And I don't see why I have to admit that I'm inferior to Indians.

Would you limit your stream of thoughts to answering to arguments other people offer, please? Seems like your strategy in argument is to flood your opponent with irrelevant assertions.
 
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