News Terror attacks in Mumbai!

[thomasantony]

Yes. Lets not have this terrible incident cause a rift. Terrorism has no religion. The recent blasts in Malegaon ( Google Malegaon blasts ) were conducted by Hindu extremists. They are as bad as any other terrorists.

I am relieved that the situation is under control now. My dad has gone there for work reason only yesterday. We as a family are supposed to go for a visit this coming Sunday and stay for a week.

I have two cousins staying at Mumbai. One of them works at an office ( The Times of India ) right opposite to the railway station where the shootings took place. For some reason, he left work early that day. The guards at the office had fortunately closed the gates etc when they heard the gunshots. The terrorists had actually stopped in front of the gate for sometime and then ran away. This happened only around 10 minutes after my cousin left from there.

Similarly, the place where my Dad is going to stay, and where his colleagues were staying for the past week ( during the attacks also ) is only walking distance away from that railway station.

Terrorism is something that affects everyone. Lets fight the terrorists and not the religion.

 

[simonpro]

Well said, Thomasantony, and I'm glad your family is okay. Just about every religion has extremists and terrorists (yes, even christianity) and that is unacceptable. We need to try to minimise the influence and power of those extremists whilst not alienating the rest of the religion.
Saying something like "Islam is the religion of violence" or "Kill all Bhuddists" or anything else equally daft does not help anyone..all it does is provide extra ammunition to those seeking to cause terror.

On a vaguely related issue, I've been examining the buildup of Indian and Pakistani troops in the aftermath of this atrocity. One thing I can't examine is what the citizens think. Do Indian citizens think Pakistan was involved in this? If so, do they want some form of 'revenge'? Or are they currently more concerned in mourning those lost and trying to prevent such things from happening again?

 

[Urwumpe]

On a vaguely related issue, I've been examining the buildup of Indian and Pakistani troops in the aftermath of this atrocity. One thing I can't examine is what the citizens think. Do Indian citizens think Pakistan was involved in this? If so, do they want some form of 'revenge'? Or are they currently more concerned in mourning those lost and trying to prevent such things from happening again?

Well, in the latest news, the terror group stated by the surviving captured terrorist is considered a brainchild of the Pakistan intelligence agency ISI in India.

Of course it is a good Casus Belli, the USA needed less reasons for fighting war against Iraq. You can also be sure, that the Indian government will continue it's domestic politics by other means. The Indian Muslims are already lost inside the lower castes of the Indian society, without any chance of social promotion. The new security laws will sure mostly target these.

 

[SiberianTiger]

What's about messages of the growing hostility level between India and Pakistan over the terrorist attack on Mumbai? I find the news troubling, considering both countries possess nuclear weapons... :mellow:

 

[Urwumpe]

What's about messages of the growing hostility level between India and Pakistan over the terrorist attack on Mumbai? I find the news troubling, considering both countries possess nuclear weapons... :mellow:

They messages are true and verified, but also, far too early to expect any full scale war between then. It is just part of the chess game on both sides, they don't even go so far to test, whose eyes blinks first. I would expect tensions to drop again in the next weeks, while diplomatic channels are already glowing white.

 

[thomasantony]

Well, in the latest news, the terror group stated by the surviving captured terrorist is considered a brainchild of the Pakistan intelligence agency ISI in India.

The Indian Muslims are already lost inside the lower castes of the Indian society, without any chance of social promotion. The new security laws will sure mostly target these.

I don't think that is the case. There is discrimination on the basis of caste in many of parts of India, especially those affected with illiteracy and poverty. This is equally applicable to both Hindus and Muslims.

One thing I can say about it is our former president Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam. He was born in a middle-class family in a small village. See where he has reached. He is a role model for millions of Indian youth regardless of religion.

As for reactions, the people are angry this time. Last time there was such a terror attack ( the Parliament attack in 2001), there was a similar troops buildup on the border. I think this time too thats all that will happen at most.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862893,00.html?iid=tsmodule

There has been demands for modernization of the police force, SWAT-like teams etc. In fact already, the government has decided to have hubs of the elite NSG (National Security Guards) commandos in 4 key metros.

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't think that is the case. There is discrimination on the basis of caste in many of parts of India, especially those affected with illiteracy and poverty. This is equally applicable to both Hindus and Muslims.

One thing I can say about it is our former president Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam. He was born in a middle-class family in a small village. See where he has reached. He is a role model for millions of Indian youth regardless of religion.

Yes, but the statistical evidence of the discrimination is somewhere else: While Muslims and lower caste people often became president of India, this is a purely representative position. You have practically no Muslims in the Indian police (less than 1% in the last figure I read), and practically no lower caste people in the parliament.

Makes it pretty easy to let such people look away, when terrorists plan to murder upper-caste people.

 

[Moonwalker]

Terrorists need no religion - terrorists only need an excuse for being criminals.

Terrorism has no religion.

In Pakistan for example, Islamists destroy the history of Buddhism. This is possible because of the ban of illustration and the fact that polytheism is the biggest possible sin in the Koranic revelation.

Each religion potentionally enables fanatism (even Buddhism if you look to the history of Tibet). But today, the Islamic terrorism, which has turned into a serious threat for our freedom, is without example in that scale.

I'm still atheist. But nevertheless it is more than rather obvious to me, that some Islamic cultures enable a special kind of terrorism in a special scale. And this in the 21st Century.

 

[Urwumpe]

But today, the Islamic terrorism, which has turned into a serious threat for our freedom, is without example in that scale.

Argument by ignorance.

The monotheist Atenism in ancient Egypt first banned all polytheist gods of the past - and later become victim of the counter-reformation, having temples of Aten and depictions of the involved Pharao destroyed.

The Early Christians in Ethiopia raided Egypt temples and removed all icons of Egypt gods, while turning the temples into churches.

Or what about the "reformatorische Bildersturm" (painting assaults of the reformation) from our own christian history?

You look into a small tribal area (Pashtun) and say: Oh, the happening there are without something comparable - and you are wrong. It is not even impressive, it is minor vandalism compared to other, better organized events in history.

Just take the "Reichskristallnacht" - only because it was only directed against a religion and not done by another religion (Well, debatable) it is still much larger as all actions in Pakistan.
Interestingly, the most war-phile cultures in our European history (Romans and Prussians) had been the most tolerant towards other religions - the romans absorbed new religions into their own and the Prussians attempted to exploit their strengths by a combination of enforced settlements and tolerance.

These cultures had not fighting wars against religions. Do you want to learn from them... or do you want a war against a religion? Wars against religions are perfectly legal, but don't complain when people defend themself. All our actions have consequences.

I'm still atheist. But nevertheless it is more than rather obvious to me, that some Islamic cultures enable a special kind of terrorism in a special scale. And this in the 21st Century.

Atheist does still not mean, that you are not free of dogma and faith. And your antiislamism shows well, how easily you are willed to believe what false prophets of occidential-christian greathood ("Look how great we are compared to those primitives") indoctrinate into you.

EDIT: Can a moderator move this reply and the post I replied to into the "religious violence thread"?

 

[Moonwalker]

Argument by ignorance.

Argument by refering to the present. The past is no excuse for the current islamic terrorsim, which is still without a current example in that scale, no matter how often people tend to repeat histories. We live now, and we are threatened now.

Atheist does still not mean, that you are not free of dogma and faith. And your antiislamism shows well, how easily you are willed to believe what false prophets of occidential-christian greathood ("Look how great we are compared to those primitives") indoctrinate into you.

I don't know to which occidental-christian greathood you refer to. I refer to the current threatened world we live in, which clearly shows that Islamism is the current global threat, after we have overcome Fascism and Stalinism. It's a fact that 9/11, Madrid, Bombay, other smaller events and those who luckily have been prevented, were caused and planned by islamists.

 

[ar81]

And it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with "weapon manufacturers," unless you consider ideology a weapon.

Things that made me think that weapons manufacturers could be behind terror:

1.Enemies of US insulted Obama, they never insulted Bush during 8 years. Are they racists? Arabs are more likely to embrace black people as similars than white americans. Bush would have been more likely to be targeted by insults if they were real arabs behind it.

2.Enemies of US threatened Venezuela at some point, being that Venezuela opposed US.

3.9/11 took place at about 8 a.m. explosions were heard in Kabul at about 4 p.m., presumably Tomahawk strikes News bulletins reported that Afghan government said "we were not". How did retaliation take place if it took months to FBI to determine it was afghans?

4.Airlines have different models of aircraft and each one is sometimes subject to upgrades and that's why they have those big fat manuals. How could attackers get into the right plane at the right time, and get familiar with such aircraft without testing its performance or instrumentation in a coordinated attack? There is a way to do that. Airline recruits spend about 1 month in the cockpit, unpaid by the airline as airline claims they are "subsidizing training". So you have people who work for free inside a cockpit, wearing uniforms, with the only motivation of flying... or hijacking it. Such a person inside a cockpit could be very familiar with the plane by the moment of the hijacking, and airline could deny that he/she was an employee as that person does not appear in the payroll.

US air security programs never took care of that security breach. The breach was still current even in 2006.

5.US captured Saddam in almost no time. US had the other enemy leader surrounded, and instead of sending Delta Force elite troops, they sent afghan scouts. Was it amateurish strategy or is it that no one wanted to capture or get rid of the enemy leader? If he died, the war would be over, and that is not good for weapon manufacturers.

There are more reasons...
Make a list of companies that made big bucks with the war.
Look for the company that owns them.
Look for the two people who founded that company...
You will find that the brother of one of them is the enemy, and the son of another is a known public character.
And then you will have the names of people who pretend to be enemies, while they make big bucks with all this mess.
This is not a secret outside US.
Many people know about it outside of US, but saying such names is such a taboo inside US that it would be too shocking for people.

If it worked in the past, it may work in the future, is what they might presume.
My bet is weapon manufacturers say today "if we push this, that happens" and indeed terror can increase their sales, so they might see a business chance.

 

[Urwumpe]

Argument by refering to the present. The past is no excuse for the current islamic terrorsim, which is still without a current example in that scale, no matter how often people tend to repeat histories. We live now, and we are threatened now.

Ah, the crabwalk...

The past is no excuse for you to ignore it and claim, the followers of the Islam are a threat, we did never have as such in the past. The past is full of examples which are even worse.

And you know the infamous quote, right? Who does not learn from the past, is condemned to repeat it.

You claim history is repeating - and you are right. Because people like you did not learn from history and because other people did not learn it. But that does not keep you from attacking Islam in general, including people who are not terrorists.

I sometimes have the impression, any discussion, online and offline, about our present state of the world always ends in a flamewar between the biggest idiots on both sides of the camp, with the people with the sharper perception already looking for shelter for the inevitable to come.

Terrorism is nothing new. Even the swamp from where the terrorists come is not new. New is only our will, to get defeated by a superior enemy. Not because the enemy is superior: We make ourself inferior when dealing with terrorists. Let the discussion run for a few more months, and we will even consider the terrorists technologically more advanced, capable to **** bullets, sweat C4 and walk through fire. They will be able to appear out of nowhere. They will always attack in legions. Turn to dust and fly away when encircled.

I don't know to which occidental-christian greathood you refer to. I refer to the current threatened world we live in, which clearly shows that Islamism is the current global threat, after we have overcome Fascism and Stalinism. It's a fact that 9/11, Madrid, Bombay, other smaller events and those who luckily have been prevented, were caused and planned by islamists.

Yes. So you clearly identified that a Islamist network of terror groups is attacking us. But can you now explain, how you plan to fill to large logical gap between Islam and Islamist terror?

Islamism is BTW, just one of many threats in the world, with chicken littles pointing at any turban and any beard and shout "The sky is falling!!!!!".

That's what I mean with occidental greathood: We are so terribly locked into the state of seeing our own small cultural circle as ideal, that we fail to see others. Our horizon shrinks. And that ignorance of us in general (as mass of people), will inevitably be noticed by people outside our horizon and be seen as arrogance and interdictionalism.

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.

I have still no reasons to believe, that the Islam wants to kill me. It is godless terrorists, which might plan to do so. Criminals. Not even supervillians.

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If the new reports are correct, and that a single armed terrorist was able to keep two stories of a hotel occupied, I see two logical explanations of the fact:

- The terrorist is a rambo-like super man, able to carry tons of ammo around him, hit with the first shot and appear anywhere he likes.

- The police has failed and the lack of adequate special forces made the event possible. (which is my personal opinion as it fits well to other similar events in modern history - like school shootings, where the fog of war limited the resolve of the local police)

Look at Munich 1972 (which will now be sorted as Islamism by deeply retarded people, I am sure, though it was nationalist terror). It failed because the police was not able to deal with the situation. Germany learned and made sure it will never happen again in their territory - we created the GSG 9, and continued to improve the strategies everytime, the existing strategies proved inadequate.

If the same situation developed in Germany, you can be sure, that the 25 terrorists would have had a shorter string of successes. Germany has a trained special forces unit and has procedures and stategies to deploy it quickly.

Especially interesting: The level of the civil special forces in the USA depends on state and city. Some special forces compete with the GSG 9 and the SAS, most are relatively badly equipped and trained.

 

[Moonwalker]

Airlines have different models of aircraft and each one is sometimes subject to upgrades and that's why they have those big fat manuals.

The manuals are that big because of the performance tables, systems descriptions and checklists. For the Airbus A340 Flight Crew Operating Manual for example, you already have 2595 pages without any lists of upgrades included (992 pages for systems description, 382 pages for flight preparation, 715 pages for flight operations and 506 pages for the flight mananagement computer).

How could attackers get into the right plane at the right time, and get familiar with such aircraft without testing its performance or instrumentation in a coordinated attack?

Most airlines use certain airplane types for certain routes which is no secret at all. While you book a flight, you can ask for which airplane type will be used too. You can also have a look to airports flight schedules.

Also, if you have training for a certain airplane type, you don't need to test its performance or instrumentation (while most upgrades are usually minor and don't require training), less than ever if you have to fly the airplane only, without any take off and landing included. I'm not a real pilot. But only based on my long experience with MS FS including professional addons, I managed a complete traffic circuit in a full motion 737-300 simulator, including take off and ILS approach down to a soft touchdown at the 1.000 ft mark right on the centerline. And only flying the airplane is the very smallest problem.

Airline recruits spend about 1 month in the cockpit, unpaid by the airline as airline claims they are "subsidizing training". So you have people who work for free inside a cockpit, wearing uniforms, with the only motivation of flying... or hijacking it.

Recruits usually don't wear uniforms. They usually wear civilian clothes during flight training. Even flight instructors wear civilian clothes during flight training. Even for big airlines like the German Lufthansa.

By the way, flight training basically is done in simulators because of operating costs. It's not "working for free". For the German Lufthansa, your career as a first officer starts already one day after completing training, with a practical experience in a real airplane of only 16 take off and landings.

Such a person inside a cockpit could be very familiar with the plane by the moment of the hijacking, and airline could deny that he/she was an employee as that person does not appear in the payroll.

It is almost impossible to deny that a certain recruit was not in training for a certain airline. It's almost like NASA would have to keep the secret of the alleged faked Apollo Program by only a hand full of people.

You are an easy victim for conspiracy theories obviously. We have seen enough hijackings in the past, which could have easily turned into what happened on 9/11. You don't even need a lot of money and planning to be able to do so.

Also, almost everybody can become rather familiar with any kind of Boeing and Airbus aircraft. Complete airplane manuals are offered as pdf files (partly for free, partly payware). And you also have professional addons for MS FS (developed and tested by real airline pilots partly) to become at least a little bit practical experienced in a simulation. This is enough for being able to fly a real airplane into a certain target. It is by far not that much difficult as most people think.

 

[Ghostrider]

Especially interesting: The level of the civil special forces in the USA depends on state and city. Some special forces compete with the GSG 9 and the SAS, most are relatively badly equipped and trained.

You cannot really compare them because they're civilians. By the Posse Comitatus Act, AFAIR, the US Military is forbidden to engage within the US. You can't send the Delta Force to see off a hostage situation in NY. Most other countries have no such rules that prevent them to use their military forces.

 

[Urwumpe]

You cannot really compare them because they're civilians. By the Posse Comitatus Act, AFAIR, the US Military is forbidden to engage within the US. You can't send the Delta Force to see off a hostage situation in NY. Most other countries have no such rules that prevent them to use their military forces.

Yes, that's not different in Germany - German military is still only allowed to assist during natural catastrophes, but not for major crimes. We had the same discussion, if to allow the military to fight terrorism, in 1972, and we solved it without changing the constitution, by creating a special forces unit of the border protection guard, the GSG 9, which is now part of the federal police. The only other special forces unit in Germany for a long time, has been the combat divers of the German Navy. Additionally, after the end of the cold war and the gaining of full supremacy, the German army also has a special forces unit for military covert operations, the infamous KSK.

But the USA have similar special forces, the SWAT teams of many cities are trained for this task, and adequately equipped. But not all. These civilian teams also compete with GSG 9, SAS and Mossad teams in competitions and joint exercises.

Finally,it does not matter, who does the job. It matters if this unit is trained and equipped for the job. If the military is allowed to intervene, and the military is trained and equipped, it is not better or worse as a similar civilian unit.

 

[Eagle]

1.Enemies of US insulted Obama, they never insulted Bush during 8 years. Are they racists? Arabs are more likely to embrace black people as similars than white americans. Bush would have been more likely to be targeted by insults if they were real arabs behind it.

Because only white Americans can be racist? One thing Obama's presidency is sure to expose a lot of the global racism that is often ignored.

Also, Al Qaeda and Chavez have both mocked Bush, the most common insult is calling him dumb. Perhaps many people missed this as they were too eager to call out the same.

 

[Moonwalker]

We are so terribly locked into the state of seeing our own small cultural circle as ideal, that we fail to see others.

Our "small" cultural Christian circle, its technologies and world changing outcomes, has changed the whole world a lot. It is not possible to minimize that.

Aynway, people realize that our cultural circle and ideals we developed and chose to live in, is threatened by conservative and dogmatic islamic ideals, which intend to deploy a muslim world-state. This threat, which indeed is based on religion (no matter if it's part of the Koran or not), still remains without example at present.

Conservative and dogmatic Islamism acts within our society already, quietly and slinking. I'm still free to chose a religion or not. I'm free to criticise Christianity but also Islam and other religions publicly. And I don't let take that freedom away from me, my country and so the system and ideals I chose to live in. This is for sure as long as I live.

 

[ar81]

India has a very ancient culture, lots of wisdom in their beliefs. I am sure people from India will overcome the ugly events and will get out of this with a different spirit.

I dream of the day when we humans understand that there are more similarities between differences, and that entering conflict is losing the chance of having good and trusty friends among those who would be your enemies otherwise.

It is sad to see that some people still believe in violence.

 

[Urwumpe]

OK, so the Muslim cultural circle has nothing like that to offer? Guess from which language most names of our stars are.

And quietly and slinking, we have conservative Christian fanatics acting in our society. We always had. We will also always have people, who will rape our ideals for their own dark agendas.

And when a US plane throws a bomb on an Afghan wedding, it is just a collateral damage in the war against terrorism.

And by repeating your wrong point of view, that the threat by Islamism remains without example, it does not get true. I have been able to show many historic examples of religious terrorism in the past. I can even cite a full list of "biggest threats" of the federal republic of Germany since it's creation. Do you REALLY think the threat by islamism is more dangerous as the threat by the warsaw pact was?

"This is sure as long as I live"... Can you prevent it? You are already destroying all, you claim to protect. What you really want to protect is not your freedom. Also you are just talking about the country, but you don't mean it. Your words are all without the will to accept the consequences. Or what is your solution for protecting the cultural heritage of your country? Or our constitution? Kill all Muslims, ban the Koran? Force Muslims to become Christians because it is easier to integrate Christians into a Christian country?

Oh, how easy it is to just talk, isn't it. The easy way out for us, is just to change our constitution so that the third article does no longer apply to our religious enemies. All animals are equal, but some are more equal.

 

[thomasantony]

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mumbaiterrorstrike/Story.aspx?ID=NEWEN20080074888&type=News

Muslim organisations deny burial to slain terrorists

Just goes to show Muslims here do not condone terrorism. It would be a very rash generalization to say Islam = Islamist terrorism. In fact, I know several Muslims ( classmates ) and others . They are all extremely angry against this attack. Even more so, since it was done in the name of Islam.

Also, the terrorists opened fire indiscriminately at the train station, regardless of the religion of the victims. It was an attack on INDIA.

Its true that LeT was initially made by the ISI. Now I think they are out of control. LeT leaders are making public inflammatory speeches in Pak. I don't think there will be any escalation of tensions. Even though the public is demanding action, there is not much chance of it going into a full-scale war. The US cannot let Pakistan divert troops away from its Afghan border ( which is what Pak is threatening to do if India deploys more troops on its border ). Its a very complex situation:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US_India_face_Pak_blackmail_on_terror/articleshow/3777307.cms