News Terror attacks in Mumbai!

[Notebook]

Plus I am sceptic about how fast that would change if christian fundamentalists had the opportunity to establish a theocracy somewhere...

Anyways, after some digging into the matter I noticed that the mail that reached me today was on quite a journey, and the sender unfortunately did not put a date on the events. The events I described seem to have happened allready in september. I am unable to get a clear information on the current situation.

This was in the UK news in September:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7630713.stm

Seems to have quitened down now.

N.

 

[Urwumpe]

If my current slightly hungover state is anything to go by, I think I may have been feeling very warm and fuzzy last night

Just to badly translate the German Supreme Court Decision (presented by the later president of Germany, Roman Herzog), on the question why alcohol is legal in Germany and marijuana not: You don't drink alcohol primarily for the ecstasy.

Matt Decker: Yeah, and you can be sure, some people in Saudi-Arabia think the same of you, especially if they could read your post. They will also react just like you. Instead of just searching the many terrorists inside the USA, they will generalize and come to the conclusion that it is much easier to just kill all US citizens. God will know his own.

 

[simonpro]

F**K this ****. They won't give up just because you say "we'll be nice", the only thing they understand is "surrender or die".

Islam is EVIL, it must be dealt with and destroyed!!!

Matt has now eloquently illustrated how threads such as this scare me. Even if it's a joke it's still downright scary.

 

[jedidia]

Some people like to believe that all religions are inherently good because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.

How many muslim friends do you have?

This was in the UK news in September:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7630713.stm

Seems to have quitened down now.

Thanks alot. There was no word of it over here.

 

[RichWall]

As painful as it can seem sometimes;

"When threads are outlawed, only outlaws will have threads."

Talking and listening is still the best means to defuse, diffuse and learn.

 

[GregBurch]

How many muslim friends do you have?

I have quite a few, but I know that the moderate, relatively secular Muslims I know are by no means representative of the products of the thousands of fundamentalist madrassas that have been turning out radical Islamists for generations. Every time we put petrol in our cars, we are funding those madrassas, which are basically weapons factories.

 

[Urwumpe]

And what about the Christian Madrassas?

 

[GregBurch]

And what about the Christian Madrassas?

...

As long-time readers here will know, I am a stone-cold atheist. But I find the cliche of always grouping "right-wing christians" with "muslims" when acknowledging the obvious truth that some religions do indeed breed more violence than others to be comical. Even if one is ideologically disposed to fear being labeled an "islamaphobe," eventually the statistical facts ought to mean something.

 

[Urwumpe]

Yes, that is your opinion - but where are your statistical facts?

Do you want to go with "100% of all terrorists in the 9/11 strikes had been muslim?"

Terrorists need no religion - terrorists only need an excuse for being criminals. But still, it is far worse if people try to turn war against terror into a war against Islam, only based on senseless generalizations.

Did you know that the 300 dead reported first in Nigeria, had been all Muslim, with the Christian number of dead still being subject to speculation...

 

[computerex]

Hello, I consider myself to be a relatively good Muslim. I do my five required prayers on time, fast when required, and generally try to be a pleasant person to be around and help whenever I can.

The question now arises, did I ever show an intention of killing anyone here? Islam is a beautiful religion, and it has now become the common target of ridicule and anger, and worst, rumors. The actions of a few aid in the labeling of the entire religion as being a violent one.

Is this any different from me saying, "America is a country filled with mindless retards" based on what I see in these videos?

It's illogical for me to believe that based on these just two videos. It's also illogical for people to believe that Islam is a violent religion simply because you see some idiots committing idiotic actions in the name of Islam. If I go and start killing anyone I lay my eyes on in the name of America, it doesn't mean that the country itself preaches any violence.

To eveningsky, Moonwalk, I suggest you look inside Islam's historical background. Historically speaking, Prophet Mohammad found Arabia in a state of utter chaos. There was no unity between the Arabian people, as everyone was tribal, with no common religion as nearly everyone was paganistic. Prophet Mohammad became both a political and religious leader who essentially tamed Arabia and bought it back on the path to modernization (hard to believe?). It is historically irrefutable that Islam played a vital role within the humanism movement. It gave female rights, and had no concept of racial classes. And it preaches unity amongst all people. I do not know the actual verses, however in the Quran it is stated that human beings have to natural rights. One, the right to serve their creator, and two, the right to serve their fellow people. God has stated that he will forgive our right to serve him, however he will not forgive our right to serve our fellow human beings. Indeed, Prophet Mohammad stated, "Do you love your creator? Serve your fellow human beings first."

In this era, false information can propagate through the world faster then ever. It is not a good idea to believe everything you hear, consequently, most of the facts I have heard about Islam on American media are downright pathetic. For the love of god, I have personally attended a Madersa ("urdu" pronounciation) for at least 6 years, and have grown up in a culture where going to Madersas is the most common form of education. My entire family, all of my cousins, everyone went to a Madersa...Their disciplinary system may need some work, their educational standard may be low, but they certainly don't preach violence...On the contrary, anyone who has lived in Pakistan will know that foreigners are actually adored.

 

[GregBurch]

Hello, I consider myself to be a relatively good Muslim. I do my five required prayers on time, fast when required, and generally try to be a pleasant person to be around and help whenever I can.

I would be happy to debate this subject with you, as my time and other matters allow. However, I feel certain that the thread will soon be locked and subject closed for discussion.

So I simply offer this for your consideration:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

 

[dougkeenan]

Men of peace are usually brave - Spock

 

[Urwumpe]

So I simply offer this for your consideration:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Reading the impressum already shows, that you shouldn't expect a rational argumentation on this homepage.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html

It is only about showing how violent the Koran is...counter-arguments are not desired, and sending an email to them will not change their homepage.

So...

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

 

[GregBurch]

Reading the impressum already shows, that you shouldn't expect a rational argumentation on this homepage.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html

It is only about showing how violent the Koran is...counter-arguments are not desired, and sending an email to them will not change their homepage.

So...

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

Ahh - so if the site is critical of Islam, anything you find there can't be true? That can't be your meaning, since that would indicate that you have a fixed opinion that can't be subject to rational argument.

But you know that if you want to discuss the actual content of the Koran or the hadith, or the history of Islam, I'll be happy to, for as long as you like.

 

[Arrowstar]

Matt has now eloquently illustrated how threads such as this scare me. Even if it's a joke it's still downright scary.

No kidding. It's that kind of thinking that leads to further violence. Fighting fire with fire tends to only torch the whole place.

 

[Moonwalker]

"If Woody Allen were a Muslim, he'd be dead by now."

Salman Rushdie


In fact, Theo van Gogh is dead already. We don't need "statistical facts" for amlost everything.

 

[computerex]

I would be happy to debate this subject with you, as my time and other matters allow. However, I feel certain that the thread will soon be locked and subject closed for discussion.

So I simply offer this for your consideration:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Sigh...I don't think you fully read my last post, as you have entirely missed the point.

Unless you do a complete detailed analysis, most sources these days cannot be trusted. Nearly all websites are subjective, and therefore only show you tampered data.

If we were to go by solely what see on the Internet, there would be chaos. Take a look at the following websites:

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm
http://www.worldjumpday.org/

The same goes for the website you have referred me to. I am not a Muslim scholar, but some of the things the website points out are ones that even I can refute. It couldn't be clearer that the website is made by someone who is lacking knowledge about the religion. Here are some of the flaws that I have found from a cursory look...:

First and foremost, these verses are taken out of context. It's a cliche argument, but nonetheless a valid one.

"Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed."

I am rather confused. If there are verses that actually balance out the "offensive" ones, then why does the website exist in the first place? And why is it that the makers of the website think that it is unfortunate that those good verses exist? It's as if they want Islam to be a violent religion.

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

This shows a clear lack of knowledge in Islamic values. Islam forbids you from being the aggressor. When Prophet Mohammad was driven unjustly from Mecca to Medina, these verses came down to allow Prophet Mohammad to seize back control of his hometown. If you have been unjustly persecuted and driven out of your home, you have the right to fight back. What is wrong with that? If someone breaks into your house, would you not fight back? The website continues to say that the verses imply that persecution of Muslims is cause enough to kill. This shows a lack of historical knowledge. At that time, persecution could literally mean murder. Indeed, Prophet Mohammad had been brutally stoned on several occasions. (BTW Islam was the religion which prohibited punishment by stoning, which is ironic because Muslims are associated with stoning these days)

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."


The website naturally criticizes this quote. Naturally, the word "fight" is taken to mean physical fighting and violence. When we use the phrase, "Fight for your rights", or "fight for a cause", do we mean physical fighting? No, it's a metaphorical phrase. If you just look inside the background of Islam, you'll know why this interpretation of the quote is invalid. People these days take the word, "Jihad" to mean fighting, which is a misconception as the word "Jihad" means "struggle". Indeed, when a soldier came to congratulate Prophet Mohammad on his victory over Mecca, the Prophet replied, "This small jihad is over. Now begins the real jihad". He was referring to life. Living your life according to the guidelines laid down by the Quran is a jihad. And this is what is meant by fighting in this particular verse. Indeed it's true. After all, who likes to wake up before the sun rise to pray? The life of a Muslim if lived correctly is a strict one.


I could continue to provide explanations about the verses the website points out, but will it make a difference? People hear what they want to hear. It's convenient for people to find a target to concentrate their frustration on. It's certainly easier to do then to directly face their issues.

 

[GregBurch]

... snip ... I am not a Muslim scholar

... snip ...

I could continue to provide explanations about the verses the website points out, but will it make a difference? People hear what they want to hear. It's convenient for people to find a target to concentrate their frustration on. It's certainly easier to do then to directly face their issues.

Are you familiar with the "doctrine of abrogation?"

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~tomshoemaker/handouts/abrogation.html
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6594

... or, in a more argumentative vein:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=3414&sec_id=3414

Please understand that I do not think that every Muslim is violent. I do not. There are hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims. But to deny that religious doctrine plays a role in violence committed by some Muslims is to deny reality.

 

[computerex]

Good Muslims are rare, and are hard to come by. Then there are idiots who misinterpret the Quran and commit moronic acts in the name of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims however are as harmful, and as "pure" as the next person.

 

[RichWall]

It might be good to start a new thread on this as to separate the discussion on each other's philosophical views from the original topic of this thread.

I believe that most of the people that come to this forum are of good conscience and would not want to escalate the hurt that has been caused in recent events.

The real issue for us is now going to be moderationism vrs extremism. To avoid typecasting and generalizing.

This forum is an imperfect medium and each member should try to give the other a "benefit of doubt" since the depth of each of our views cannot be fully expressed here with only the written word.

It would be good to keep this thread mindful of the people and families that have suffered recently in Mumbai.