New doomsday prediction...

i hear about this before, apparently its going to pass once, miss, then come back to haunt us again, a VERY convenient natural free return sling around earth, i dont buy it somehow

partly because it seems silly, two passes made by the same asteroid so close? and secondly because thats a long way in the future, our predictions cant be too accurate at this point, just give it another few years for us to get a better prediction
 
in the meantime, theres more chance of the film 2012 coming true, with "mutated neutrinos" and "crustal shift"

(as a physics student, just done particle physics, and a geography student, doing tectonics, trust me, thats a load of rubbish)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Again?!! For god's sake, what's the matter with them? Why do they all want to die and make these bloody stupid predictions? This one is actualy more plausible than that 2012 nonsense, but still...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
(as a physics student, just done particle physics, and a geography student, doing tectonics, trust me, thats a load of rubbish)

As a totally unqualified armchair professor, I can say with confidence that it's a load of rubbish!

But it must have been particularly painful for a physics and geography student. :uhh:

A collision could happen, not will happen. And it is also no doomsday... there is just potential for relatively small scale destruction (read: several gigatons), as well as a bad tsunami wave, but it is no Extinction Level Event.

Nevertheless, a simple probe mission to it might be a pretty good bolsterer for the space program... as long as the mission is not directed by Michael Bay. :dry:
 
i was referring to 2012, not the asteroid, that may well hit us, but we dont know yet, our predictions are nowhere near accurate enough
 
The data will be refined, but the math is not the problem. Usually every trajectory inside the data uncertainty is run to see where it takes the object...

A new good opportunity to refine the trajectory will be in 2013, IIRC...


No doomsday if it hits, though. Sure, I wouldn't stand under the thing, but no long term effects, certainly nothing past 2 or 3 years...
 
Did anyone remember that game, The Dig? Where you had to fly Shuttle Atlantis and nuke that astroid?

On topic, if rockosmos is going to destroy that astroid, how would Nukes in space work? Dont nuclear bombs use air?
Well, all we know is, we have the army for destroying astroids. :lol:

And actually, by the time that astroid IS ready to hit earth, we've already developed a satellite that pushes the astroid in another orbit path. Isn't science amazing? :cheers:
 
Last edited:
I heard something like 1 in 50000; I can still sleep easy.
 
The last calculated probability that i read about, of Apophis hitting the Earth was 1/250000. '

So, i'd bet against the hit ANYDAY! It's true that we'll get a more refined trajectory of it's orbit in 2013... if those calculations turn out to predict that it will hit us... then it WILL be an extinction event! For at least TWO species:
1) The crazy serfer! (Dude... i got to ride that 3-mile tsunami!)
2) The poor weather-man/woman, reporting the news.

Other than that, we'll be fine.
 
The last calculated probability that i read about, of Apophis hitting the Earth was 1/250000. '

So, i'd bet against the hit ANYDAY! It's true that we'll get a more refined trajectory of it's orbit in 2013... if those calculations turn out to predict that it will hit us... then it WILL be an extinction event! For at least TWO species:
1) The crazy serfer! (Dude... i got to ride that 3-mile tsunami!)
2) The poor weather-man/woman, reporting the news.

Other than that, we'll be fine.

Very true, however, if it does reach anywhere near earth, we'll have those nice people who build a certain rocket that rhymes with Borton :hailprobe:
 
Nuclear weapons don't use air, they work differently in an atmosphere than they do in space, but a nuke will operate just fine in space.

I wouldn't try to blow the thing up with a nuke, but nudging it off course by using a nuke to ablate the surface by the very means of it's thermal pulse might be a worthwhile idea, if not in this example, perhaps somewhere else.
 
The tugging idea sounds so much better. You deflect the thing enough to miss us (and sling us) in a way to never be able to get to Earth. (For a couple of thousand of years... if you manage to deflect it to Jupiter, then we'll never have to worry about it again...)
The question is... who takes care of the cost for such a mission?
 
On topic, if rockosmos is going to destroy that astroid, how would Nukes in space work? Dont nuclear bombs use air?
Well, all we know is, we have the army for destroying astroids. :lol:

Yes, you people are great at blowing things up. A little less great when it comes to understanding where the debris goes afterwards.


You don't wanna blow this thing up. You want to position a ~200 ton space craft next to it, let the gravity of the space craft pull the asteroid, then activate thrusters aimed away from the asteroid to gain more distance. This way you can pull the asteroid away over time.

I made the calculations and it seems that this approach seems far better then just ramming the asteroid with the same amount of mass. I don't remember the exact results, but I think it's in the range of 2x better.


Finally, I VERY MUCH doubt the scientists made the "doomsday prediction" and if they did, they're probably looking for their 5 minutes of fame...
I'd say that the interpretation of the journalist is where the doomsday prediction came from...
 
I think nobody really said that the thing should be blown up... then again, provided you give the fragments enough velocity so as to miss the keyhole, it might be feasible. Just because "blowing it up" sounds like a crude and imprecise method doesn't mean it couldn't work, though it certainly isn't the best option. For one, both any munition or impactor that could do the job would probably be extremely impractical.

Getting a 200 ton spacecraft to an asteroid is no cynch... "200 tons" sounds easy on paper, but it isn't only about physics. It's about economics and politics as well. Our largest serious launch vehicle proposals could get maybe 40-50 tons to an asteroid, and they (read: Ares V) have been scrapped. On-orbit construction also isn't a solution, it is definitely possible, but not easy. We've never constructed a spacecraft of that sort in orbit before.

Furthermore, bar some sort of gravity drive, you'll have to point the thrusters at the asteroid, if you want to thrust to move away from it. You can angle the thrusters away from the asteroid more and more, but this reduces effective thrust (and effectiveness of the thrusters) as the angle increases. If you have exhaust gas pushing against the asteroid, it kinda hampers things... maybe even to the point where you could try and push the rock away with a jet of exhaust gas...

The minute someone hears "nuke", they think "OMG nuke nuke bad Armageddon science failure impossible to blow up asteroid shotgun effect no no no!". But the reality of using a nuke is different, it's not about splitting asteroids apart, it's not about "blowing it to smithereens, lulz". It's a device that creates a rapid release of energy, that promotes the ablation of the object's surface. The release of gas then acts like a crude thruster, pushing the object away.

Am I saying that a nuclear option is a cure-all? Of course not. Am I even seriously suggesting it? Only partially. There are a large amount of problems with this, ranging from the political, to that of asteroid composition, and the mere operation during such a mission, which is most certainly untested.

But the thing is: the gravity tractor also has a large amount of problems. You can't deny that. And if something else proves to be better ("better" as something that encompasses the entire operation of such a mission, not only the mere physics aspect) then it can no longer be called "the best option".
 
Using a nuclear explosion to push it away certainly would be easier and cheaper than making gravity tractor. W88 warhead weighs only 360 kg and have 475 kt yield. A complete spacecraft containing this warhead would probably weigh 1 - 2 tons total. There are many launch vehicles available which can easily push this mass in Apohis flyby trajectory. And in this case you don't have to match orbit with target (saves a lot of deltav), just set off the warhead at the right time when it passes the asteorid. For a price of single gravity tractor we could launch several nuke missions and have some nice redundance.

Anyway as far as large scale disasters go major impacts like Apophis are relatively rare. I would be more worried about large volcano blowing up. For example a VEI 7 scale volcano erupting in some densely populated area would be a natural disaster far larger than anything our modern civilization have faced. Imagine Tambora v2.0 happening nowadays in overcrowded Indonesia. And there is nothing to be done to prevent it from happening. Such eruption could cause global climatic disruptions with a potential for large scale crop failures.
 
W87 is believed to have a weight of 200-270 kilograms, was originally 300 kilotons but an upgrade to 475 kilotons should be possible. A space-based nuke will have a lot of stuff - like ranging, manuvering propellant potentially, etc, but would also lack a reentry vehicle. It would however be advantageous if the device itself is protected against reentry though, to prevent the spread of radioactive materials in the event of a launch accident. On the other hand, since the materials within the device are not highly radioactive, it might be politically advantageous to ensure the device does disentegrate on reentry, so that nobody can claim the nation(s) launching the mission are on some sort of nuclear offensive.

My crude calculations show that a 475 kiloton warhead could impart at least 0.485 m/s to an object with the mass of Apophis, however, I did assume Apophis was spherical and made of pure carbon, for simplicity's sake.

Not only is flying that sort of mass to an asteroid-type object possible, but we've done it, during the Deep Impact mission. Deep Impact cost $330 million for developing the spacecraft and completing the mission. Encountering other red tape and the inclusion of nuclear devices etc, might drive the cost up to around a billion, and even then the cost of launching two or three spacecraft is still relatively attractive when compared to a gravity tractor, which would probably cost more than $100 billion alone.

Anyway as far as large scale disasters go major impacts like Apophis are relatively rare. I would be more worried about large volcano blowing up. For example a VEI 7 scale volcano erupting in some densely populated area would be a natural disaster far larger than anything our modern civilization have faced. Imagine Tambora v2.0 happening nowadays in overcrowded Indonesia. And there is nothing to be done to prevent it from happening. Such eruption could cause global climatic disruptions with a potential for large scale crop failures.

I wouldn't even call a potential Apophis impact a large scale event, it would be a massive disaster but relatively small compared to say, even a 1 kilometer wide object.

The difference is, of course, that we have the potential to prevent an Apophis impact. We don't have that potential ability with any other natural disaster phenomenon. With for example, what would be an extremely destructive and deadly modern eruption of Mount Tambora, all you can do is try to prepare. You can't prevent it, you can't stop it.

He who says he does not care about Apophis, is a bad soul. Whether or not it actually will pass through the keyhole isn't what's up for debate, it's what we do if data shows that it will. Would you have prevented the 2004 indian ocean tsunami, if there was a chance that you could? Would you have tried to prevent the deaths of 230 000+ people?

Now what if I told you that if Apophis hit central America, it could kill 10 million people? Or that if it hit somewhere in the Pacific, it would create a large tsunami that would affect the entire Pacific Rim?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top