Multiplayer Finally being created

[Hielor]

Another solution, which is inevitably posted in all of these threads, is to change time acceleration to plain old acceleration. An inherent flaw of that is that MFDs which predict the motion of planets in tandem with that of your craft will be useless, as you whiz along your trajectory while the planet does not.

At that point, why not just warp drive or stargates or whatever and call it good? No real point to using Orbiter, then...

I have knowledge of TCP and UDP(UDP is questionable)

Having knowledge of TCP and UDP doesn't really mean much of anything if you don't know how to design a good game networking protocol on top of them.

While i have a good skill set, it would be easier to start from scratch. He can help if he would like. He can probably co-develop.

:rofl:

 

[N_Molson]

“When men are most sure and arrogant they are commonly most mistaken, giving views to passion without that proper deliberation which alone can secure them from the grossest absurdities”

David Hume (1711-1776)

 

[jedidia]

I'd suggest to just cut down on the chatter and see what happens... and if there will be anything to see at all.

 

[Urwumpe]

I'd suggest to just cut down on the chatter and see what happens... and if there will be anything to see at all.

I can only agree. But his statements about his skills and how he understands the problem suggest, that he has absolutely no clue yet, except high school programming course skills and vivid dreams.

Maybe I am wrong in this assessment, and I would be happily wrong there, but it does not feel very well-thought now.

Especially the calling for starting from the scratch being better, does not imply any knowledge about multi-player gaming at all, except maybe turn based strategy games.

 

[ryan]

Hey guys, lay off him and see what he produces before we judge him.
I'm betting people scoffed at Dr Martin when he said he was going to make orbiter :lol:

 

[Urwumpe]

Hey guys, lay off him and see what he produces before we judge him.
I'm betting people scoffed at Dr Martin when he said he was going to make orbiter :lol:

I doubt it, since he was already overqualified for the job before he wrote it. :lol:

He maybe learned C++ on the fly (at least the evolution of the Orbiter API suggests it), but the real challenges are not the programming language, but the data structures and physical relations.

Just like for OMP.

 

[Blacklight]

I think that having multiple people in the same craft would be a really interesting way of doing things. It's a blast in Dangerous Waters. In that game, you can either set it up so each player has specific responsibilites or you can set it up so that various players share responsibilities. I've been wanting this in Orbiter for a long time.

 

[MeDiCS]

Aside from the huge problem of time acelleration (which it doesn't quite seem you have completely figured out), what about the little things. How will you cut down on lag, as to make precise maneuvers such as docking possible. I know next to nothing about how making this all work would..er... work, but how do you plan on networking the server and client together (that probably made no sense).

I suggest, if you have the time and skill set, just help face out. He's gotten the furthest out of any of these projects, and could use the help.

Quote from an 'old' post, but this may help nevertheless: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Prediction

 

[Urwumpe]

I think that having multiple people in the same craft would be a really interesting way of doing things. It's a blast in Dangerous Waters. In that game, you can either set it up so each player has specific responsibilites or you can set it up so that various players share responsibilities. I've been wanting this in Orbiter for a long time.

There is a serious price for that in orbiter (like in Dangerous Waters, BTW, but you already paid it there): The vessel developers need to support such cooperative multiplayer in their vessel modules.

I would really like to have such a feature for SSU, but currently, having remote control features for ground equipment and mission control is the highest form of cooperative multiplayer, that we can support.

 

[Face]

While i have a good skill set, it would be easier to start from scratch. He can help if he would like. He can probably co-develop.

Erm... well... you see, I don't have a problem to help developing a better multiplayer from scratch where someone else takes the designing lead.

But this: (10-12-10, 04:20)

Ok. I am about to start the prep work tomorrow.

...and this: (29-09-10, 18:38)

To shed light on the entire situation, I am currently creating an Orbiter Multiplayer. Funny, as it turns out, there is a MP area in the CFG. also, can someone tell me what this Orbiter Server is?

...is making you lose respect points in my book. It looks like you have nothing more than lovely day-dreams on your hand.

I would (and really only could) discuss design parameters for a from-scratch implementation with you, if there'd be at least something like a design sketch-up like this.

[RANT]But there is nothing but your announcement. Excuse me, but it looks like just another "I want multiplayer, and I want it immediately"-n00b-thread with much bla-bla and nothing else. And every such thread is water on the mills of multiplayer-bashers, because it looks like multiplayer in Orbiter is something for kids, day-dreamers or crackpots, but not for "serious" developers. Just another reason for really skilled folks to say "hands-off of multiplayer-projects" like OMP.[/RANT]

I seriously hate this,
Face

 

[jinglesassy]

@Face i am not against orbiter multiplayer i just dont want a person coming in here with his first post saying he is going to make something with no apparent plan on how to do it at all.

 

[Face]

@Face i am not against orbiter multiplayer i just dont want a person coming in here with his first post saying he is going to make something with no apparent plan on how to do it at all.

I never said you had something against multiplayer. And I agree with you, but I would want to add one thing in this sentence: not only "something", but something polarizing the community. Just like combat in Orbiter.

 

[Urwumpe]

Just like combat in Orbiter.

I doubt anybody would kill me for making an accurate simulation of a Nike-Hercules site. The polarization comes mostly from people who mistake the community for something monolithic. Like all people liking braindead destruction. Or all Orbiteers being pacifists with artificial intelligence. Never conclude from yourself about the rest of the pretty diverse community. Better found a social group at O-F and gather people with common interests.

I would say, nobody here is really against Multiplayer, but many have different expectations, of what they want to do in it. Many young new users expect something like "I've found her", and lack the insight in those complex elegant maneuvering, that most old navigators here appreciate. Of course, this makes a difference, if you don't need time warp at all, because all happens quickly, or you do most of the mission at time warp, because you have a life.

If somebody makes a working Multiplayer, that doesn't mean that you have to cut off a leg for using it, I would say, anything else than loud and silent appreciation would be a surprise. :thumbup:

Still, I think there is still a long way to go until Orbiter and Multiplayer really gets a natural feeling. And that is not really about state propagation or time frames anymore, but rather about the small frictions that make it only popular among few staunch supporters.

 

[Rtyh-12]

Excuse me, but it looks like just another "I want multiplayer, and I want it immediately"-n00b-thread with much bla-bla and nothing else.

I WANTZ MP NOWW!!! DO IT OR WE KIll U!!!

Seriously now, people forget that a few years ago (OK, more years ago) some working multiplayer add-ons were made. However they were just prototypes and they didn't really work. Also, saying that you want to do the project yourself and letting Face "co-develop" isn't really...how can I say...the smartest thing around. Although I do agree that we should let you do whatever you want. Hey guys, even if nothing comes out of this, at least he tried, which is more than most of you have done (including me:facepalm.

 

[Urwumpe]

Also, saying that you want to do the project yourself and letting Face "co-develop" isn't really...how can I say...the smartest thing around.

That is an understatement. It is like going to Leonardo Da Vinci, saying that you want to paint a painting of a smiling woman, and offer him to mix your paint for it.

Or say to Von Braun that you want to design a rocket and offer him to design the TVC actuator lever of the third stage engine.

 

[Face]

That is an understatement. It is like going to Leonardo Da Vinci, saying that you want to paint a painting of a smiling woman, and offer him to mix your paint for it.

Or say to Von Braun that you want to design a rocket and offer him to design the TVC actuator lever of the third stage engine.

Thanks. It is an honour to be compared to Leonardo Da Vinci or Von Braun, but I have to reject this compliment. My work so far is not comparable to the achievements of these men.

Anyway, I'm willed to help out projects IF they are obviously heading into the right direction (from my point of view). You don't have to take my word for it, just ask jedida or Mindblast. If the OP brings up a reasonable plan how multiplayer can be implemented properly, I'd be the first to discuss it or even help him sketch-out the design.

Unfortunately, this is not the case here. Coming up here and proposing the easy solution out of nowhere due to TCP and (questionable) UDP "skills" is somewhat leaving a bad impression. Leaving out important corner-stones like lag-compensation, timestamping, NAT-awareness, synchronization, load-balancing, event-gathering, etc. is a good hint at a multiplayer-project going into the wrong direction, too. This is something you have to fix BEFORE you think of time-acceleration at all, IMHO.

But as I already said: I wish him good luck.

regards,
Face

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't really want to argue with you about that, but just as final straw for me: Who else is really in the position here to be considered an expert for Orbiter Multiplayer? I think aside of you, the number is going to be less than four.

Out of a community, that has currently around 1200 people.

Not really that much to lessen any effort of yours there.

And I can just tell it from my point of view: I have no clue about network application protocols, lag compensation, load-balancing or event-gathering. I am not even sure, that I want to. Reading old assembly instructions for old hardware is easier.

 

[fort]

In the meaning of multiplaying, someone made, few weeks ago, a copilotage module ( that i've never try ) in a beta version which seem to work. But it's copilotage: only one vessel to play.

All the explanations are there:

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/forum/read.php?f=5&i=20283&t=19185&page=-1#reply_20283

...and one can find the module and its doc in a message of pilote334 (05-09-2010 17:26) at this adress:

http://www.simusic.fr/demo/TeamServer_100b.rar

 

[deltawing777]

I WANTZ MP NOWW!!! DO IT OR WE KIll U!!!

Seriously now, people forget that a few years ago (OK, more years ago) some working multiplayer add-ons were made. However they were just prototypes and they didn't really work. Also, saying that you want to do the project yourself and letting Face "co-develop" isn't really...how can I say...the smartest thing around. Although I do agree that we should let you do whatever you want. Hey guys, even if nothing comes out of this, at least he tried, which is more than most of you have done (including me:facepalm.

This is how I feel also. Do I have my suspicions? Very much so. But give him the benefit of the doubt. Lets get behind the guy and support him.If he fails then he fails. We are all used to this anyways should come as no surprise. MP is not an easy thing in orbiter. I do think he should help face on his already working alpha/beta OMP myself,but we are not the coders and its not up to us to decide.Was it wise to come in O-F and announce it before he actually had anything to show or backup his claim? Well no. The result of that is this thread lol.If he wants to take a different approach and start fresh thats his bussiness. In the end only time will tell. Just my opinion. So anyways untill I see "somthing" code related I'm done with this thread

 

[Bonanza123d]

Ok. if you would like to see something i did for another game, here is something. A while back, a MP System was created for the open source train sim OpenBVE. I completely overhauled the system. instead of taking the 2006 code, i will be doing everything from the 2010 sdk. There will also be no LaunchPad UI for server connections. Instead i am putting it all in a MFD. later today when i start my coding, i will be happy to explain what features will be in the alpha and try to give screen shot for progress.