Is Religion A Force For Good In The World?

[dgatsoulis]

Not a pole... really.
I'll start with this one: A debate between Tony Blair and Christopher Hitchens.
If you have the patience/nerve to go through the whole 1 hour, 46 minutes of it... tell us what you think!

If not, please keep your opinion to yourself! ok?

 

[Jarvitä]

No, any positive effects organised religion may have do simply not outweigh the atrocities committed in its name alone, and even allowing for that, they don't outweigh the fact that billions of people are being led to abandon reason and embrace mysticism and irrational modes of thought, bringing the entire species down a significant notch on the intelligence scale.

And before anyone even mentions the "atheist genocidal dictators", let me just point out that not one has murdered people "in the name of atheism and rational thought". The most commonly cited examples of 20th century godless tyrants were themselves either deeply religious or had reasons entirely unrelated to their atheism for committing the crimes they did.

Living in delusion is never good, no matter the outcome.

 

[Urwumpe]

One opinion though: This is 1:46 hours long! Do you seriously expect anybody without deep interest in such discussions to watch the whole thing of it? That will be hard work.

I am more interested in spaceflight than about arguments which way of living is the best.

 

[Notebook]

Absolutely:

N.

 

[Moach]

No, any positive effects organised religion may have do simply not outweigh the atrocities committed in its name alone, and even allowing for that, they don't outweigh the fact that billions of people are being led to abandon reason and embrace mysticism and irrational modes of thought, bringing the entire species down a significant notch on the intelligence scale.

And before anyone even mentions the "atheist genocidal dictators", let me just point out that not one has murdered people "in the name of atheism and rational thought". The most commonly cited examples of 20th century godless tyrants were themselves either deeply religious or had reasons entirely unrelated to their atheism for committing the crimes they did.

Living in delusion is never good, no matter the outcome.

:hesaid:

 

[Ghostrider]

The most commonly cited examples of 20th century godless tyrants were themselves either deeply religious or had reasons entirely unrelated to their atheism for committing the crimes they did.

Sounds like the "no true Scotsman" reasoning here...

 

[Arrowstar]

No, any positive effects organised religion may have do simply not outweigh the atrocities committed in its name alone, and even allowing for that, they don't outweigh the fact that billions of people are being led to abandon reason and embrace mysticism and irrational modes of thought, bringing the entire species down a significant notch on the intelligence scale.

And before anyone even mentions the "atheist genocidal dictators", let me just point out that not one has murdered people "in the name of atheism and rational thought". The most commonly cited examples of 20th century godless tyrants were themselves either deeply religious or had reasons entirely unrelated to their atheism for committing the crimes they did.

Living in delusion is never good, no matter the outcome.

There will always be an excuse for people to kill each other. If you remove religion, people will find something else to rally around. It just so happens that religion (as it stands now) is a convenient excuse for idiots to go at each other with (figurative) pitchforks and torches. A lack of religion won't remove the problem, though, merely redirect it to something else.

There's a funny Family Guy (?) clip on YouTube that illustrates this point. The characters are shooting at each other, yelling about how they are the best atheist and all that. Humor aside, it's effectively the same thing, I think.

 

[T.Neo]

It is, like everything, double-sided. It can be a basis for a sound lifestyle and a motivation to perform good deeds, or it can be used as an excuse for atrocity, opression and hatred.

I really dislike it when people go on about the horrible, terrible no-good deeds that for some reason, define entire religions and also all of their followers.

The fact is: Most of the time, these people also do not have truely religion-motivated actions, but rather have other reasons for their horrible actions and use religion- or any other cause, really- as a sort of 'excuse'.

And most followers of religion(s) are not evil, or those that would go out on their own and commit atrocities, or people that want mass murder and destruction and war. They are just people, who live their lives- a lot of them, are deep-down, good people.


Atheists are not untarnished, perfect, happy, non-atrocity committing people. They are only about as good as religious people.

Denying that people of a certain group- Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Enviro-nuts, whoever, have not caused atrocities, is downright bad. Because all of these people have caused atrocities of one kind or another.

Was there atheist-motivated hatred and opression in certain places and at certain times in history? Of course. Is it any worse than religiously-motivated hatred and opression? Nope. Because these people were also human, nothing more and nothing less.

Anything can be used as an excuse for hatred and opression. It is just that atheism has historically been as prevalent as other things, to cause this.

Take arguments over "which OS is best". That is a form of it, even if it is extremely mild, but still... it shows the psychology.

 

[dgatsoulis]

It's a vid, regarding a "Vanity fair" collumnist... and the last UK Prime-minister!
So... yes, i'd expect people to watch it!

 

[Hmuda]

Also go with a big fat "no".

Does it do good things? Sure. They build communities, do charitable works, etc.

The good things it does are exclusive to religiosity? No. Secular groups are just as capable of getting people together and helping others. Even more so. At least they don't hold sandwitches hostage until the homless pray with them or spend a large portions of charity-money on bibles and missionaries instead of actual helpful stuff. Also, secular charities don't go around AIDS infected Africa, spreading willful lies about condoms, basicly sentencing millions to a slow and painful death. They don't spread lies about polio vacines, causing outbreaks of a disease that was supposed to be erradicated by now.

I don't really have to watch that video. I'm with Hitchen on this issue and I already know what he has to say about it.

Also remember: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg

But to broaden the selection a bit, here's another YT video series with the same basic question, this time teaming up with Stephen Fry against some UK politician and a Catholic bishop (I think, some high ranking priest).

I would like to bring your attention to the last video, expecially the part where they tally up the audience votes from the beggining and at the end. These two gentlemen really turned things around.

 

[dgatsoulis]

Atheists are not untarnished, perfect, happy, non-atrocity committing people. They are only about as good as religious people.

Probably worst!

But religion IS a problem, no?

 

[T.Neo]

The good things it does are exclusive to religiosity? No. Secular groups are just as capable of getting people together and helping others. Even more so. At least they don't hold sandwitches hostage until the homless pray with them or spend a large portions of charity-money on bibles and missionaries instead of actual helpful stuff. Also, secular charities don't go around AIDS infected Africa, spreading willful lies about condoms, basicly sentencing millions to a slow and painful death. They don't spread lies about polio vacines, causing outbreaks of a disease that was supposed to be erradicated by now.

Bible-bashing is not intrinsic to religion either, though many, if not most people think it is. If you do good things, people in need might be more interested in what you have to preach. Maybe more so than if you try to shove it down their throats.

The condom issue... is completely and utterly absurd. I really, really do not know how anyone can put that forward, beliefs on birth control or not. I do not hate the Catholic church for that, but it is a... silly, and dangerous statement.

Alas, religous belief is not the only belief that 'sentences millions to a slow and painful death'. HIV/AIDS is also a disease that should well be on the way to eradication, but is still going strong because people presumably regard themselves as invulnerable, or don't care about their partners.

And also because certain people in power [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thabo_Mbeki"]have denied[/ame] the HIV/AIDS correlation, and spread nonsense about quack-remedies, in the process denying the availability of crucial drugs and directly leading to at least hundreds of thousands of deaths...

But religion IS a problem, no?

No, religion is not a problem. What is the problem is the people who use it as an excuse for actual problems. Like wanting to blow people up or speaking against much-needed protective measures against deadly disease...

 

[Ghostrider]

Religion is a problem the same way football fan clubs are a problem. It's only as big a problem as we want it to be. The sad thing about humans is that we'll use any pretext to gut each other, and lacking any big ideology we'll have knife fights between Windows and Mac users (after they've been through putting Linux users in derez camps).

Everything can be a force for good or evil, and there ain't no cause so noble it won't attract fuggheads.

 

[tl8]

Probably worst!

But religion IS a problem, no?

I am religious, so does that make me a problem?

Or do you have a problem with the institutionalised side of religion?

Is it bad that probably half the human population who are religious normally just go about their daily lifes?

Do you have a problem with me worshipping some weird guy in the sky?

 

[Mister Mxyzptlk]

The bottom line is that all religeon is myth and therefore untrue. I don't want to live a lie no matter how comforting.

 

[N_Molson]

Is Religion A Force For Good In The World?

No.

Especially because the ideas of "Good" or "Evil" are subjective and anti-scientific. There is nothing like that in the universe. Stars live and die, planets orbit, galaxies expand.

And the Probe quietly enjoys this with an universal satisfaction.

 

[dgatsoulis]

I am religious, so does that make me a problem?

No, it doesn't, unless, you feel like, indoctrinating, the "Truth" to your children...
Or do you have a problem with the institutionalised side of religion?

Is it bad that probably half the human population who are religious normally just go about their daily lifes?

Do you have a problem with me worshipping some weird guy (Zeus) in the sky?[/QUOTE]

 

[C3PO]

[opinion]
Religion? No!
Faith? Yes!
[/opinion]

 

[tl8]

No, it doesn't, unless, you feel like, indoctrinating, the "Truth" to your children...

As I don't have children I can't tell you yet. But I hope I can teach them about my religion, hopefully they will understand more than one religion. I will not force them to believe what I believe if that is what you mean.

 

[Kveldulf]

The bottom line is that all religeon is myth and therefore untrue. I don't want to live a lie no matter how comforting.

Ya, you see, in a more organized debate, you'd have to actually support and prove this (all religion is false). Since I'm guessing you can't support and prove your claim that all religion is false... care to retract it?

Anyway, the real bottom line is that neither religion, nor are religious institutions as a whole are a problem. The problem is that some people use religion as a reason to do horrible things, and sometimes these people happen to be in a position of "power" within a religious institution.