Economic Meltdown

willy88

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You've all heard about it, you're all aware of it. What will happen when the economy completely dies? Will the US government collapse? Will people have to go around in cars that have been modified with thick armor plates and machine guns to gather sustenance? Discuss.
 
I've heard there's plenty of moose in Canada.
 
Too early to say. We don't know how far it will fall, or how people will react. I'd say we're in for something of the magnitude of the Great Depression. The mistakes that have been made are much the same. But for as bad as the Depression was, the nation survived it. So I'd say we have dark days ahead, but we can survive them if we don't just throw up our hands and quit.
 
It doesn't have to be so dark, but it will be darker if congress rolls over and hands the Fed and the Treasury secretary all the money and power they are demanding.

Which they probably will.

You know that saying about never underestimating the stupidity of people in large groups? It applies threefold to politicians in groups, and double it again for a manufactured crisis.

The American public is about to be forced to buy almost a trillion dollars of bad assets. That's smart.

ETA: And remember what I said over a year ago about NASA's Constellation program getting severly cut when the next president takes office? I am doubling my proverbial bet.
 
I wouldn't worry about the collapse of the US Gov't, but this thing looks like a game changer.

What I do know is a lot of people need to go to jail. The problem is its so many (thousand or more) that the ones who actually do can be counted on one hand.

ETA: And remember what I said over a year ago about NASA's Constellation program getting severly cut when the next president takes office? I am doubling my proverbial bet.
I've been avoiding thinking about it, but Constellation may even get the axe.

EDIT: I'm hoping that the bailouts and their ramifications don't set any presidents. But I'm pessimistic.
 
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I'm quite sure that budget should be locked for Constellation. I'll check my facts though
 
Will never happen. It is in no one with a stake in the financal markets interest for the system to fail, so it won't be allowed to.

BTW- Other countries with smaller economies will break down and decend into chaos long before the US does. The old axiom of "when the US get a cold, the rest of the world gets the flu." is still true. If the US gets pneumonia, the rest of the world dies.
 
BTW- Other countries with smaller economies will break down and decend into chaos long before the US does. The old axiom of "when the US get a cold, the rest of the world gets the flu." is still true. If the US gets pneumonia, the rest of the world dies.
Economists here are not getting too down on our prospects:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/25/2374664.htm
"Despite the global gloom, it[Reserve Bank of Australia] has reiterated the Australian financial system is well-placed to weather the crisis."
 
It doesn't have to be so dark, but it will be darker if congress rolls over and hands the Fed and the Treasury secretary all the money and power they are demanding.

I tend to agree with you on this point. There's going to be a crisis either way, but it's not going to be fun if the government (further) bankrupts itself, even if it makes the onset of the crisis a bit softer.

OTOH, my Dad has a point when he says that a good part of economics is psychology, and a bailout might be necessary just to prevent panic.

On the third hand, the bailout itself makes me want to panic.

But so much of economics is simply a matter of trust and trustworthyness. If you don't trust the economy, it won't be trustworthy. (In other words, everybody is so afraid about a bank collapse that they all go and withdraw their money from the bank, then the bank will collapse. If everybody's so afraid of an economic slowdown that they don't buy anything but the barest necessities, then there will be a slowdown). OTOH, if you put too much trust in an untrustworthy economy, you'll get burned. If a slowdown is coming and you keep acting like nothing's happening, you'll find yourself in the poorhouse really quickly.

Which they probably will.

You know that saying about never underestimating the stupidity of people in large groups? It applies threefold to politicians in groups, and double it again for a manufactured crisis.

I'm not sure where you get the "manufactured crisis" bit from, but the rest I'll agree with.

The American public is about to be forced to buy almost a trillion dollars of bad assets. That's smart.

What's more, alot of those bad assets is debt. Alot of that debt is owed by the American people themselves.
 
Economists here are not getting too down on our prospects.

That article does not speak to what happens if the financial crisis spreads to the general economy and causes business and trade to stall into a world-wide depression. Australlia would weather it better than most, but it would still suck.

If the plan works, then things should be fine. The US Government floats the financial markets enough money to get going again and eats some of the short term losses, in exchange for repayment with interest and the difference in its value (which should be significant) for the trouble.
But its that big "IF" it works, that has people scared. That along with the suspicion that this might be some big con to get the big banks off the hook, or if this isn't really some sort of Clancy'esque economic attack on the West.
 
The current US government plan is corruption and elitism. Not more. It only helps rescuing the "big names", which committed financial suicide with their banks, and now notice their errors, when it is too late.

It is capitalism, when you take risks and fail, you have to pay the price, just as you can take the profits, when you succeed. The banks and their managers took many profits at home, when the system worked, and now, the market demands his price. The US government should not pay the bill for these managers.

The banks which did the errors, should either get bankrupt, or get bought by banks which calculated more carefully. The US government should provide money for avoiding that companies can't take loans anymore, by offering loans itself for a short time - but in a very conservative way, with high interest rates and limited by time.

But the money which got given to people who can't repay the loans, is gone. That can no longer be avoided. And yes, many people who got loans which they did not deserve, will loose their houses. Again a point, where the US government could step in, by providing social housing (but that might be too communist, though not as communist as the 700 billion plan).

The USA have really demoted themselves, and the finance system inside the USA will be damaged for years.

JamesG: In Germany, we still assess the situation like that, in your terms: When the USA get pneumonia, we should be buying scarfs. Our situation will not be good, but compared to the USA, we are healthy.
 
ETA: And remember what I said over a year ago about NASA's Constellation program getting severly cut when the next president takes office? I am doubling my proverbial bet.
The timing of this is interesting then:

Senate pass NASA bill for extra funding - shuttle extension goal
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5525

If I read this right, the next Prez gets the say in whether this goes ahead? I guess we'll know better by then what the markets are up to.
 
I think that the USA is going to lose its role as "the" world power. Not soon, but on the long term.
 
The problem (or basic feature) of the free market is that the participants are concerned only with making money for themselves (naturally), and are not necessarily concerned with maintaining the health or stability of the the market as a whole. This isn't greed or selfishness, it is just human nature.

So there is a need for market-stabilizing regulation, but I don't think that there is need for much. The one think I really hate about this situation is that you have these enormous companies that are being run by fools that are 'too big to die', and so the taxpayers are forced to pay to keep them afloat. This isn't how the market should operate, paying to keep the worst performers afloat.

The one thing that *should* be considered is somehow restricting company mergers or growth when the size of the resulting firm (financially) is large enough to impact the economy as a whole. Within that restriction, companies should be allowed to die and rot when they fail, with no intervention. I am not sure how such a restriction could be implemented, however, as it puts a fundamental limit on how successful a company could be, which hurts well-run companies. Any ideas?
 
The one thing that *should* be considered is somehow restricting company mergers or growth when the size of the resulting firm (financially) is large enough to impact the economy as a whole. Within that restriction, companies should be allowed to die and rot when they fail, with no intervention. I am not sure how such a restriction could be implemented, however, as it puts a fundamental limit on how successful a company could be, which hurts well-run companies. Any ideas?
We have nothing specifically related to considering the impact of if a company should fail but the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission reviews mergers/acquisitions to ensure competition is not reduced. This generally stops companies dominating the market through mergers and acquisitions. There are no limits on growth however, which has been a perceived problem in the grocery market here with two major players now dominating the market. I say perceived because it has not been the latest study by the ACCC did not consider it to be a significant problem.

I don't think this current crisis is because of one or two large organisations dominating the market and failing, though. If I understand the reporting correctly, it has more to do with widespread risky credit practices made worse be destabilising market forces (eg short selling). Restricting the size of organisations does not stop the failure of a market sector (finance in this case) if the majority of the players in that market are following the same risky practices.
 
The US does have anti-trust and other anti-monopolistic laws and regulations. But they aren't as strong as other countries as it has a historical tradition of laize faire and otherwise being friendly towards big business.
Most likely what will happen is just another layer of onerous financial regulations designed to patch over this flaw/loophole in the system.

I think that the USA is going to lose its role as "the" world power. Not soon, but on the long term.

Good! Its expensive. The US did not ask to be the sole world power, it was thrust upon us by fate from being "the last one standing".
 
You can’t really get a handle on what to do about the current financial crisis and how bad it might be without at least beginning to figure out what has actually happened and why. I’ve spent a good deal of time studying this and thinking about it, and I’ll offer some observations about the what and why of how things got to the state they’re in.

I think one of the main root causes of what has happened is the impact of advances of information processing technology on financial systems and institutions. Twenty years ago, the kinds of financial instruments that are at the core of the current crisis and the institutions that developed around those instruments simply wouldn’t have been possible. The kind of large-scale creation and trading of what I call the “layering and repackaging” of mortgages requires a huge amount of information processing, information processing that would have been inconceivable just a couple of decades ago.

The basic LEGAL process involved in creating mortgage-backed securities isn’t new. The tools involved in loan syndication are very old, almost as old as modern commerce itself – say, close to 300 years. What’s new is the quantitative complexity of the syndication involved in creating the sort of mortgage-backed securities that have ended up causing the current crisis. The amount of financially-relevant information incorporated into each step of the “layering and repackaging” involved in creating the securities that make up the bad sections of the balance sheets that are the targets of the proposed bail-out is staggering.

One of the things that is said in the news reports on the subject from time to time, but that I think doesn’t really get enough attention, is the fact that, at this point, it really isn’t possible to VALUE these securities. One of the main reasons for this is that there are so many layers of combination and recombination of financial information in the “stack” of syndications that ultimately leads to the problematic final securities.

So, what happened? As I see it, one of – if not THE – key causes of the problem is that risk assessment did not keep pace with the “complexification” of mortgage-backed securities. The traditional one-on-one risk assessment involved in secured lending is relatively simple and is even older than modern commerce – I’m sure there was some kind of pawn shop in Sumer or Ur, and it wasn’t long before the pawn shop owner hired a big guy, and made his business more attractive by allowing the borrower to hang on to the collateral until the loan was repaid, or until the big guy had to go grab the collateral. I know that documentary indentures of loan security predate the modern age – for modest sums you can buy nicely printed medieval collateral indentures to frame for your law office.

With residential real estate, lending risk assessment – “mortgage underwriting,” as it’s called – is also a well-understood exercise: The lender engages in an analysis of the value of the real estate and the probability that the borrower will be able to and will in fact repay the loan, builds in some margin of required equity to cover that risk and, if the numbers match – bingo, you have a real estate mortgage.

Now, herein enters a second factor – “the bubble.” With rising real estate prices and decreasing interest rates, the “greater fool” factor began to operate in the period after about 2000. Of course, speculative bubbles are nothing new in capitalist systems; as someone above pointed out, they’re as old as the tulip bubble.

The problem is that it became far, far easier to “lay off” mortgage loans with the advent of “hyper-syndication” made possible with the amplified information processing capabilities of the last 20 years or so. Before then, there were simple practical limits to how many individual mortgages could be “packaged” to back a security imposed by such mundane things as how fast a person could type or add columns of figures or collate information.

I remember when I first started practicing law 21 years ago that “residential mortgage-backed securities” were a NEW THING. I remember the “aha” expressions on the banking and real estate lawyers’ faces when they “got” what was possible. In those days, only the really biggest players could even consider experimenting with this new financial tool, because they were the only ones that had access to the information processing capacity and institutionalized manpower necessary to marshal the information required to put together the bond indentures that were the legal mechanism upon which these new-fangled securities were based.

But little by little, the technology got more and more powerful and then easier and easier to use. The institution of the “mortgage broker” began to change – it went from a little-known, behind-the-scenes, labor-intensive specialty business, to one that was open to small entrepreneurs. Smart real estate brokers and small-time bankers began to at first dabble in mortgage loan syndication, then jumped in with both feet: It was a business that required little or no capital, and, as time went on, became wildly profitable, especially as the natural post-2000 real estate bubble began to inflate. There were hundreds of these kinds of operations going full-blast in the US, creating the raw material that was feeding the input side of the mortgage-backed securities market.

The problem is that, at each step of the process of syndication, the basic mortgage underwriting judgments became more and more diluted. And with the ease of selling individual mortgages into the syndication market, loan originators had less and less of an incentive to engage in sound underwriting in the first place: Why bother, when you can ship the risk off of your balance sheet in days, at most, and probably hours or even minutes by the time things began to come to a grinding halt a year or so ago?

So the basic discipline of the consequences of bad underwriting was decoupled from the process of making loans. The highly “granulated” nature of the underlying collateral made any kind of regulation nearly impossible: The ratio of individual loans to the size of the “tranches” of mortgages backing specific bonds was huge; so auditing the process once it was underway was functionally impossible. This is what is being talked about when you see reporters saying that valuing the currently problematic securities is impossible – you’d have to unwind the syndication process and get back to all the individual underwriting. This is theoretically possible, but would involve staggering amounts of tedious effort to do. On a cost basis, it’s more efficient to just wait and see how the underlying residential home loans actually perform. But runs on the financial institutions that are holding the highly syndicated securities as assets take place on a time-scale of hours and days, while the home loans perform on a time scale of months and years.

I’m out of time to write this morning, but I’ve been meaning to set these ideas down in writing for my own purposes, and I thought I’d share them here. I hope to return to discuss how the above relates to what ought to be done to address the problems later this coming weekend.
 
I think that if the US government is playing socialism now, they should at least do something that would directly benefit it's people.
I think it'd be for the best if the money was used to partially pay off the loans and mortgages that people got suckered into. This way you'd reduce the monthly percentage of payments by the people.

I think that would put a quick stop to the housing crisis and loan crisis because people would have an easier time paying it off, and it would put a quick stop to the banking crisis, since the banks would get their money right away.

Instead, the government is now giving money to the people who lied and stole and put the economy into this whole crisis in the first place. And if you look closer at the current plan, you'll see that 700 billion dollars are being invested and even if this plan succeeds, you will not get 700 billion back.

You don't need to be much of a math geek here to figure out something's wrong.
 
As Greg described, the problem is very complicated. Even in the best of times there is a certain level of default on mortgages. It is the aggrigate nature of them that was both their strength and weakness.

Think of a mortgage backed security as a TV or an LCD flatscreen. Each pixle is an individual home mortgage. If you lose a couple of "dead pixils" as defaults or forclosures, the screen is still useable. But if too many go bad, then the screen gets hard to use and has less value.
That is what has happened here. With the increased forclosures, while the majority of the securities (the individual house mortgages) are fine and have the same value, overall value of the security is less than its face value. The same way that you would not pay full retail for a flatscreen TV with a bunch of dead pixels in it.

And since the banks and other instututions use the value of these securities as "leverage" or to borrow money to be able to do things (like make more loans), if they suddenly discover (or have revealed) that they are worth less, that means the ammount of money that they have available shrinks or completely dries up.

That is what the bailout is trying to fix. It is designed to remove the weight of all these bad securities so that they have the money lend and invest again. And its not just a US problem because all of the markets are interconnected, so its happening to a lesser degree all over, or the other banks around the world that rely on US markets to get financing or invest in suddenly can't.
 
Good! Its expensive. The US did not ask to be the sole world power, it was thrust upon us by fate from being "the last one standing".

Well, it is not like you had been fighting to let somebody else take the lead. :P
 
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