News China lands jet on first aircraft carrier.

On the other hand, if one really knows why he is sent to Iraq or Vietnam for example, he would refuse and quit military service.

Yes, which would be the best if it would be as such everyday.

But you could also have wars that needed to be fought. Afghanistan, as much as it degenerated, was one such war, that had to happen and which was understandable, regardless of your sense of patriotism. You needed a pacifism that has overcome sanity, to say that this war was wrong. of course, today we would do many things differently, and if I would have had absolute power there, we would not talk about Afghanistan today. GWB would have been sitting in an Afghan forward operation base before he even finished saying "Iraq".

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Ummmmm, Jeez, man:huh:
You know there are veterans on this forum, right?

If you are veteran, you would know that his words are not that far from reality. Military service attracts stupidity and your first war is fighting against getting turned stupid by it. Especially if you get officers, which are really the MVP of the enemy... such a thing happens when the officer selection process is defined by people who never had to fight.
 
well not to speak for everyone, but for me the the "so what?" is just that someone posted a news article on a forum, so we're discussing the aspects of the article that are interesting, in this case, it's a warship, so we are discussing ideas about weaponry and warfare. If someone posted a video about a LEO launch system, we'd be talking about that instead. :thumbup:
Of course we are discussing the thread topic, as we would any other. I was getting into that discussion, not trying to kill it.

I think if you read my post, you would understand that I was implying "so what China has a carrier", not "so what, who cares, shut up Notebook".
 
You know there are veterans on this forum, right?

My comment basically is related to the advice to leave politics to politicians. Which is a kind of thinking I can't have as a civilian. No matter who is standing in front of me. Even if it would be the German chancellor or minister of defence.

Yes, which would be the best if it would be as such everyday.

But you could also have wars that needed to be fought. Afghanistan, as much as it degenerated, was one such war, that had to happen and which was understandable, regardless of your sense of patriotism. You needed a pacifism that has overcome sanity, to say that this war was wrong.

As much as it had to happen in the opinion of people who believe to think and act sane and smart, as much it is without any result and remained nothing more than propaganda. The power of the Warlords is unabated. Changes can only be influenced by negotiations and by respecting the enemies and the Afghans. Anything else is far away from sanity, but close to European and US naivety and arrogance.

But it belongs to the basement anyway.
 
In the current geopolitical context, the operational efficiency of that Chinese carrier probably counts for little. I think their main idea is to show they can deploy aerial and amphibious forces around Taiwan and the Eastern Asia. Aircraft carriers are extremely valuable assets in international politics as they are a symbol of military power. And as it has been proven in the past, they are mostly useful as mobile operation bases against ground targets, also able to provide huge interdiction areas. In a modern chess game, the aircraft carrier is the queen.
 
indeed, and of course a queen can be slain by a pawn if you don't strategize correctly . I think that's a good analogy.

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------

Of course we are discussing the thread topic, as we would any other. I was getting into that discussion, not trying to kill it.

I think if you read my post, you would understand that I was implying "so what China has a carrier", not "so what, who cares, shut up Notebook".

ah, i did read it, but rereading it i see where you are coming from here. :tiphat:

yeah i don't think it matters much at this moment that they have one. in a sense, they don't even have one yet, as it's main mission now is training.
 
The power of the Warlords is unabated.

That wasn't - originally - the scope of the mission, which was to interdict Al Qaeda's assets in Afghanistan. Nation-building is not a military objective, and should never have been an issue. I personally believe if they want the warlords to be gone, it can be done should the political will to do so exist. Just turn the world's eye away for a couple of weeks to do the necessary - bloody - work.

Changes can only be influenced by negotiations and by respecting the enemies and the Afghans.

That only works when the enemy knows you can annihilate it. Treating your enemy with "respect" and "negotiating" without a position of force only means your opponent will laugh at you. Why should I negotiate if I hold all the advantages? I will only do that if I understand that not negotiating will damage me to the point any advantage I may hold will be nullified by the outcome.

But it belongs to the basement anyway.

Yes. And there's not even any fine wine down below to make the place interesting.
 
...officers, which are really the MVP of the enemy... such a thing happens when the officer selection process is defined by people who never had to fight.

Them are some true words right there. "Corporate Navy (or whatever branch of service) types which are more interested in covering their hind-parts than getting the job done.
 
Clearly some random folks on internet forums know more about naval strategy than people who are actually trained for it.

You guys should hire on as defense consultants.

Indeed, although there probably is enough experience from some members here to have this discussion seriously.

I think the point that often (or rather, almost always) is missed by civilians (especially politicians) is that there is a big difference between how a weapons system looks on paper and how it functions in the real world. Warfare isn't a game of Top Trumps: missile system X may have a maximum range of Ynm, but in reality the effective range will depend on many other factors such as launch height/speed, weather, radar propagation, target aspect, tactics employed etc. There's also the operator factor - you can have the best weapons systems available but with no idea how to employ them they won't be as effective as lesser systems operated by somebody who knows what they are doing. Also bear in mind that just because one country might have a large number of aircraft available to attack a carrier, how many of those are actually serviceable and available for a strike? Even if they could muster a large number of aircraft, do they have the experience and C2 to put together and co-ordinate a complex large scale strike? It is a lot more complicated than just jumping in your jets with some anti-ship missiles and heading towards the carrier task group at full throttle.

In this case, it's also worth noting that naval aviation and maritime air-power isn't simply a case of taking an aircraft and flying it off a ship - which itself is considerably more challenging than doing so from an airfield ashore for a multitude of reasons - but also requires a whole different understanding of how to employ those aircraft as part of a composite maritime force, and if it was that simple we'd let the air force do it. In the RN we've been operating aircraft at sea for over 100 years, but moving back to a full sized carrier with more aircraft and an additional gap between the old CVS and new carriers there's a lot of work going on to relearn lost skills and work out how we're actually going to use the things.

There's also another factor - logistics. Yes, you've got your shiny new jet on your shiny new carrier. Maybe you've built up the experience to operate that jet effectively from said carrier and you've developed the tactics and doctrine to have a credible carrier strike capability, but can you actually keep that ship supported across the globe with a reliable logistics chain? If not, having a carrier which can't operate more than a few weeks from a friendly port isn't really all that useful. A fleet of supply ships and the capability to conduct replenishment at sea (much more difficult than most non-naval types appreciate) are essential. You've also then got the question of maintaining aircraft in a small hangar with no space and everything that isn't tied down moving around. Navy aircraft engineers don't have the luxury of ordering in spare parts quickly or all the resources they need at their disposal and are often required to manufacture spares locally or repair things that if land based would be scrapped.

In conclusion, whilst carriers are a useful and relevant asset to have in a balanced fleet and add a huge capability with respect to power projection, by themselves they aren't the be all and the end all of maritime power. Even if you do have one, to actually make it useful you need to know how to use it from the deck crews to the pilot flying the aircraft to the command and control structure in the ops room, and effectiveness of any asset in reality goes far beyond the 'Top Trumps' stats you might find on the internet. You then need to back it up with logistics to allow it to operate away from home in order to actually project that power.

It really is potentially a case of "all the gear no idea"!


Anyway, back to the desert without a ship in sight :cheers:
 
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Does anyone know which Carrier Ops procedures they are using?

I didn't think the Russians had Catobar.

I would guess they might use the French ones...
ItnxRlqtzkK85FFIhJpdRg2.jpg

http://cheezburger.com/6818353408

I was wrong!

They are copying the US, again...

Ignore the other images, looks like this is another internet fad...
 
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