Programming AI with binary, it can't be done, here's why.

Keatah

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http://malus.exotica.org.uk/~buzz/byte/pdf/BYTE Vol 03-01 1978-01 The Brains of Men and Machines.pdf

After reading the brain article you can easily get the idea that simulating a brain with 0's and 1's is a really bad bad idea. Despite the article being from 1976, it gets so much stuff right.

What a great article! I think today's so-called AI "experts" should go and read this article. Programming supercomputers based on 0's and 1's that use on/off transistors is a majorly-faulty approach to achieving any form of intelligence; no matter how rudimentary. All you can really accomplish is little more than a huge truth table as output.

The type of circuit element needed for true AI applications has not yet been invented. Nor has it been simulated with today's digital logic gates. The component needed to handle analog and digital signals in time/space/intensity dimensions, AND in varying quantities of each aspect. Sometimes it might be analog or sometimes digital in nature. Perhaps anywhere in-between the two qualities. It might have a varying frequency or amplitude, and it might take place here or there x,y,z. Moreover, the circuit component we need should be *generally* consistent but yet at the same time it must be required to deviate and make "mistakes". And, depending the behavior of its connections it should be able to make and break those connections seemingly at random. Or at least turn them on and off or strengthen and weaken them. It should also be able to connect itself to other circuit elements from time to time without outside intervention, most of the times. Many of the circuit elements in a single "block" may operate at slightly different speeds, from time to time, and they may vary their output levels, from time to time. Each element must be able to also be re-purposed by itself, or at the direction of other circuits. And last but not least, it should be able to change its own internal logic "truth-table" and sensitivity and power output slightly in most cases, but sometimes radically; all aspects being affected by the environment withint which the element resides, its own internal "bios" code, and under direction from outside signaling. The transistors sitting in your core i7 chip are nowhere near any of these requirements. In fact, modern manufacturing processes go to great lengths to ensure there is no variation between processor units, what comes out of one CPU will be exactly the same as another. Zero difference. Even an FPGA with DSP peripherals don't meet all the requirements.

As far as programming it, you wouldn't need to. Not in the sense of the traditional computer with ram and hard disk. There is no sequence of instructions that are to be followed. No way! You might do some "bios" low level core programming to get some of the regulatory stuff up and running stable. But beyond that, no. The conglomeration of circuit elements would "program" and arrange themselves over time, by themselves. How they would connect and remember and process things would be a result of the initial layout or schematic of the circuit, but only vaguely, generally, for a little while. After time, one network of elements could develop a radically different configuration. None of our current computer systems allow for that flexibility.

On another note: It is also refreshing to read articles that are not constantly quoting other work, the bibliography for this article had only like a few references. That's fantastic! Many papers I read today have a bibliography section equal in length to the original article! Fer'Chrissakes! Talk about cookie-cutter degrees being handed out.. Where's the originality?
 
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So you're saying that the ultimate goal of computer science should be to emulate imperfection? No thanks.

Also:
On another note: It is also refreshing to read articles that are not constantly quoting other work, the bibliography for this article had only like a few references. That's fantastic! Many papers I read today have a bibliography section equal in length to the original article! Fer'Chrissakes! Talk about cookie-cutter degrees being handed out.. Where's the originality?
References for scientific articles aren't about copying others' work or being unoriginal. They're about showing that the contents of your article aren't just making stuff up and pulling stuff out of your arse, by showing the foundations upon which your work is based.
 
Not at all, computer science needs to expand beyond ones and zeros if it will ever hope to make any form of intelligence. The transistor is just not the correct circuit element for the job. A quantum computer would be a step in the right direction. As so would be 3d layout fpga's that are part analog and part digital. It's baby steps, but they are good ones. Binary computation can be a part of an "artificial" brain. But it can't be the sole modus operandi. Besides, anything that perfect will be boring. And, surprisingly, Hollywood gets it right more often than you think. They usually pair up some biological material with logic circuits to make a unique computer. Reference the biomimetic gel-packs on ST:Voyager, and the abomination brain in Saturn 3, those are just starters.

If I see a huge list of bibliography references, then I know too much influence from other sources has colored the budding author. The phrase "work based upon", means little more than regurgitation. Sounds nice, but it's shallow.

If we are to make the paradigm shifts (there hasn't been one in 30+ years other than the internet) required for big advancements, we CANNOT be constantly working from and quoting the past. We'll be stuck here forever!
 
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The question of whether you can build an AI with binary based computers has the same answer as that of whether you can build an AI at all. If it's physically possible to build an AI, then at the very least you can build an AI with a computer by simulating whatever structure is best for building an intelligent machine. (Whether a computer provides the most efficient means of building an AI is another question, but at the moment it's the angle for attacking the AI problem that our technology is best suited to, whether or not it's efficient).

Whether AI is physically possible in the first place is dependent on metaphysical assumptions (such as whether a supernatural element, i.e, a soul, is required for intellegence, and, if so, whether a soul automatically appears in any physical structure capable of intelligence).
 
Yeh, a soul *would* probably automagically appear in any construct that has a complex-enough pattern. Exactly what the tipping point is, I don't know. But there probably is not an exact measurable point. It would be slightly different for each collection of elements. And it would leave when the collection got too thinned out or small.

Also, many neurophysiologists are tending to agree that the soul and consciousness arises from the presence of a feedback loop between the high-level artsy-fartsy abstract thinking processing neurons and the low-level animal predator, carnal, wild-animal-sex, instinctual behavior cluster of neurons. Uhm.. Yes that is simplified, but it will have to do. I don't want to write a dissertation on neurology. But it *is* the latest and most accurate thinking. No pun intended.

It also explains why a crime such as rape can be done repeatedly without remorse, the high-level inhibitory circuits are damaged, not present, or not in complete communication with the low level fighting/surviving/reproduction instincts. There is no limiting, no regulation, nothing to stop the constant need for sex. Yes, men think about sex almost all the time. And little or no feedback loop. So a rapist is like a wild animal. And they *can*, but not all do, feel bad about the crime later. Sometimes never.

What a frakking mess! I hope our AI constructs fare better..
 
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I think ones and zeros can work. Binary has already proven to be capable of making intelligence, for example, the human brain. The brain cells have only two states, on and off, essentially the ones and zeros. Its about the connections it makes that defines the intelligence.
 
By my understanding, the brain is a universal analog computer, capable of simulating any analog process in itself. Real neurons have been shown to be both digital and analog things, they can send digital-looking signals but also the nets of them have analog effects, like coincidence detection.

Think of it like that - when you tune the radio, which is a simple analog circuit, to the station wave, it does not do the computations to demodulate the sound from the carrier, it just lets it out.

Closer example - think about a complex-shaped vessel that you need to find the volume of.
On one side is a supercomputer, that have the shape of that vessel written into, and is crunching numbers, deriving the empty spaces, adding them up, etc, for the next few hours.

On the other hand is the vessel in question. You pour some water in it until it's full. That amount of water is it's volume.

Answer received in something like a minute, because water does not compute it's propagation, it just flows driven by the laws of physics, while a computer models the same laws.

There could be a gap of dozens of orders of magnitude between the speed of analog processes and digital computations of the same results.


Now, we can model AI on a digital computer.
Why? We can model the laws of physics, we cam model the universe on them, and we know one working example of an intelligent device - one you have between your ears.

But the problem is that by the time that simulation does one step of atomic interactions, untold centuries would pass.
 
I think this is all pretty stupid: AI can't work because of binary. That is like saying if you are only able to count in decimal, you can't represent 18.2. Of course you can. I just did.

The number system and the core logic of a computer say nothing about its abilities, even a 8 bit computer can work with extended precision floating point numbers. It just takes a while longer.

Humans also can't deal with any floating point numbers in their system - all is quantified, so essentially we are some sort of fixed point. Does this stop us from talking here? Also, do we really represent letters and words as numbers, or do we simply work on a more sophisticated way?
 
Why... exactly... do we need an "artificial brain", and why... exactly... can't we contine development of real-world computer intelligence programs that perform real tasks?

They use binary, don't they? :rolleyes:
 
Why... exactly... do we need an "artificial brain", and why... exactly... can't we contine development of real-world computer intelligence programs that perform real tasks?

They use binary, don't they? :rolleyes:

Not really an artificial brain, but AI has actually many real good purposes. I remember a research project about using a neural network AI for suggesting error sources from the event logs of a car. While human brains are too flexible for such tasks, a typical stream processor (like a modern GPU) could go through the data in a few milliseconds, even if you have a very huge neutral network. And it is better than developing a special expert system on millions of maintenance reports.

The problem is just, that the number representation is only an implementation detail, it rarely has any effect on the algorithm.
 
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A bit of a misunderstanding there, I think... I was referring to focusing on such applications that use AI, instead of wasting money and time on some sort of frankensteinian 'artificial-person' concept.
 
A bit of a misunderstanding there, I think... I was referring to focusing on such applications that use AI, instead of wasting money and time on some sort of frankensteinian 'artificial-person' concept.

Well, first of all: Why not? It is science.

Next...it is fun. I remember having used a bot in an IRC channel for a while to replace me, with only very few people noticing that this wasn't me.

also, I would really like to have some AI crew members in Orbiter, that assist the player or just make the spacecraft feel less sterile. There is no difference between artificial intelligence and real stupidity.
 
Oh look, an AI thread, and the word "soul" appears in the third post.

There's nothing magical about neurons sending electrical and chemical pulses to each other. We understand how neurons work, we're capable of simulating them. We "just" need to figure out why they form the connections they do and what those connections imply, and build hardware capable of simulating hundreds of billions of them in parallel.

It doesn't matter whether that hardware is today's integrated circuits, mechanical cogs and wheels, or actual biological neurons. The substrate is entirely irrelevant. There is nothing a priori sentient about biological neurons and nothing non-sentient about a pile of rocks. It's the arrangement and the emergent properties that matter.
 
And now this becomes an argument over the existence of a soul... typical. :dry:

Well, first of all: Why not? It is science.

The same can be said of creating something closer to the actual concept of a Frankenstein monster. ;)

also, I would really like to have some AI crew members in Orbiter, that assist the player or just make the spacecraft feel less sterile. There is no difference between artificial intelligence and real stupidity.

Yes... but... that also has nothing to do with attempting to create an artificial person, it's rather mundane- from a general perspective- as AI exists in many videogames today.

OBSP is working on AI, but I'm not sure if it's exactly the same thing you're talking about here.
 
The same can be said of creating something closer to the actual concept of a Frankenstein monster. ;)

See the problem, but it is not my problem. :lol: I have pretty loose ethics there. As long as it is about creating life...I won't complain how it is created.

Yes... but... that also has nothing to do with attempting to create an artificial person, it's rather mundane- from a general perspective- as AI exists in many videogames today.

OBSP is working on AI, but I'm not sure if it's exactly the same thing you're talking about here.

I think this is just a different level of sophistication. An AI for a strategy game can be pretty simple, but you can of course add more and more dimensions to it. if you have an AI that can pilot a spacecraft, you can also make the same AI react to the player. Or also interact with the player. Or learn from the player.
 
See the problem, but it is not my problem. I have pretty loose ethics there. As long as it is about creating life...I won't complain how it is created.

Well... whether this is 'life' or not is a different story... it certainly is philosphically, but biologically... not any more than any other software program is alive.

My ethical concern when it comes to this sort of thing, is that when I try to put myself in the shoes of the test subject... things are not necessarily pretty.

It's almost like... trying to engineer a clone child, or messing with the genetics of humans and other species... it is fine if you choose not to dictate any ethics on the subject, but the majority of people will- for better or worse.

I would like to be many things, and I would like to not be many other things, but out of everything, one thing I certainly would not like to be, is an entity that exists solely for scientific novelty.

I think this is just a different level of sophistication. An AI for a strategy game can be pretty simple, but you can of course add more and more dimensions to it. if you have an AI that can pilot a spacecraft, you can also make the same AI react to the player. Or also interact with the player. Or learn from the player.

Hmm... I don't know, what would the actual advantage be?

Would it be Clippy For Orbiter? :rofl:
 
Piloting a spacecraft is much easier than programming a sensible response to a human player's strategy. The obvious solution is calculating a Nash equilibrium (which is exponential in most cases), but there's the added trouble of multiple equilibria and irrational human players who know about Nash only from hollyweird movies.
 
irrational human players who know about Nash only from hollyweird movies.

You mean The Adventures of Pluto Nash, right? :lol:
 
Programming artificial intelligence can't be done in binary?

Isn't the whole definition of artificial intelligence that it gives the appearance of "true" intelligence, when really it's just an automated process? Surely under that definition, AI can be done under any kind of system as long it gives the illusion of intelligence?
 
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